You must log in or # to comment.
If you’re still trying to pull “both sides” to defend a country murdering and abducting children, you have no footing to stand on.
They don’t care. It’s meant to muddy the waters, confuse people who only pay attention to world affairs on the surface level. Repeat it, and people remember it. Doesn’t matter who responds to you. Doesn’t matter what they say to refute it. All that matters is getting the material out there, making it pop, making it catchy. Then all you have to do is rely on spotty human memory to do the rest.
It’s even better when you get third parties passing along your propaganda too, and all the implications it drags with it.
“This is not war of Russia and Ukraine. I am against such definition. This is Putin’s war.”
- Boris Nemtsov, before he was shot on bridge near Kremlin wall
No one is saying that in good faith. I’ve only ever seen it as an idiotic straw man to attack people who don’t support escalation in Ukraine.
You can see that Russia’s actions are irreconcilably evil, and still not support Western military intervention in the area.
Since the west are the ones doing the most to help Ukraine right now, you kind of can’t.
I am a centrist, when I say both sides are bad, it doesn’t mean both sides are bad in every single conflict but that both sides have their issues. For example, Ukraine has a problem with Nazism, but that doesn’t mean they should be invaded by Russia.
The reason why this strawman meme like OP posted, gains traction is because most centrists don’t really bother wasting time and effort arguing online.
“I am a centrist”
And as such no one should listen to a thing you say.
Neither should they to you either. I’m a nobody, just like you.
A nobody with an opinion that destroys society vs some random person. Yep absolutely same thing (see centrism is great!!)
Russia has only strengthened the position of the Nazis. A society fighting a desperate defensive war can’t afford to exclude any help. If Nazis want to go fight the Russians, go let them. Either way, regardless of who dies, you win. And if the Nazis survive until the end of the war, we can thank them for their service with slightly comfier pillows in their jail cells.
And if the Nazis survive until the end of the war, we can thank them for their service with slightly comfier pillows in their jail cells.
Except this thinking is literally how half of ethnic conflicts in early 20th century arose. The problem with this is that if Nazis survive, they are going to do so by holding positions of power.
what are you talking about? the far FAR overwhelming amount of Ethnic conflicts in the 20th century onwards were literally due to the collapse of artificial socio-economic structures created by then defunct empires.
Literally: COLONIALISM
And if the Nazis survive until the end of the war, we can thank them for their service with slightly comfier pillows in their jail cells.
I see no jail cells in these photos:
- (2019) Former WWII nationalist guerrillas granted veteran status in Ukraine: https://www.kyivpost.com/post/7148
For reference:
Rule 2: No misinformation
Don’t post any intentional misinformation. When asked by mods, provide sources for any claims you make.
You seem to be exceptionally confused. Go back and read what I said. At no point did I say that was what happened. It was my personal opinion that if Nazis help you fight a defensive war, their reward should be more comfy pillows in their jail cells. No amnesty, no forgiveness.
I’m flattered that you went into all that effort to dunk on me, but in the future don’t do all of that work until you make sure you understand the comment correctly.
Your comment didn’t specify a timeframe, which is why it contradicted recent events.
It was my personal opinion that if Nazis help you fight a defensive war, their reward should be more comfy pillows in their jail cells.
I share your opinion there.
I see what you mean. Regardless, I’m glad we agree on the actual point once we got through the misunderstanding.
A domestic enemy helping you defend your country is still a domestic enemy, and you can’t just forgive their wrongs, even if it feels a bit exploitative and unfair to give them nothing.
Ironically, your number one ally in a defensive existential war is the fascists and extremists, because they’re going to be quite pissed at the prospect of being conquered. Allowing them to fight is already reward enough for them.
Centrism isn’t a political position. It’s an attitude. It means you have a tendency to view dichotomies as false, and further that the truth, as you understand it, exists somewhere between two presented (false) dichotomies.
Centrism means different things depending on political context. It could mean you’re a socialist, a capitalist, a fascist, a bolshevik. It doesn’t present a political view in and of itself, and as such it’s usually an incredibly unprincipled stance.
Do you look at class through a socialist lens or a fascist one? As in, do you believe the classes are opposed in their interests or aligned?
Do you support the state’s monopoly on violence and subsequent declaration of private property rights?
Do you view allowing the interests of capital to steer the global economy via institutions like the IMF as a grave injustice or the invisible hand of the market doing what’s best for humanity?
The answer to these questions, if you look into things, will often align in a coherent way. It’s unlikely, for example, that you’ll take a socialist lens on classes in viewing them as conflicted while also supporting the declaration of property rights in direct opposition to the interests of the worker.
If you’re in the U.S and you’re a self-described centrist, you’re likely a capitalist who’s simply undecided on some social issues. If you were brought up religious but went to secular public school, that would cause some dissonance in analyzing social issues. However, this inability to form a coherent view shouldn’t be the main feature of your self-described political stance.
It’s better to just say you haven’t done enough research to come to any reasonable political position. It’s much better to accept that humans don’t know everything and know where your own knowledge falls short.
As someone who thought for a while they were centrist, this represents how I came to see it better than I could have put it into words.
Centrism is a desire to compromise between the two available options. There is no compromising with fascism. They might pretend to compromise, but they are really just solidifying their position for their next push. A compromise means they accomplish half of their goals and thus will have an easier time getting the rest of them than they would have before the compromise. Especially if their concessions all had nothing to do with real power, like allowing gay marriage. If they can offer the decriminalization of abortion to secure more political power, they can just consolidate that and use it to ban abortion again for everyone down the line. Their primary goal total power, everything else is secondary to that.
I see the Democrats as largely representing the status quo economically and politically with a healthy dose of social of progressivism thrown in. That social progressivism is important, but the economic and political stuff is what really needs to change to fix things. The Republicans, on the other hand, are regressive economically, politically, and socially, which was the case even before their recent descent into fascism. A compromise between those two won’t do anything good, so centrism is out.
Or rather, the Dems are, as a product of the nature of being such a broad party, centrist.
They’re only left compared to the far right. They try to keep balance far too often, often at the degeneration of the left (or greater good).
I’m not saying it’s bad (it isn’t ideal), but it is what it is.
You say all of this and practically not a word of it shakes out in reality
Removed by mod
Being a victim of a murder doesn’t make you a good person?
What? Who murdered Putin? What the fuck are you on about?
What? Who said anything about Putin being murdered?
I stated that being a victim of something terrible doesn’t mean you’re automatically good.
Yes it does you absolute buffoon. If you are being attacked as part of an invasion that means you are automatically and without question on the good side if youre defending yourself.
If you argue in any other way you deserve to have your opinions and arguments laughed at online.You are the victim, but that doesn’t make you 100% good XD.
Removed by mod
Okay, let me explain this to you like you are a four-year-old:
Pointing out the idiosyncrasies in either country’s culture is irrelevant to the discussion yet you did so and now defend doing it.
You only brought up an issue in Ukraine’s culture, none of Russia’s.
Therefore we know you are bringing up irrelevant shit in a biased way to make Ukraine look bad.
Therefore you need to shut the fuck up.
Removed by mod
Removed by mod
Okay, let me explain this to you like a four-year-old:
Oh he’s really going to listen to and consider what you’re saying, and maybe change his mind, based on you talking to him like that.
Therefore you need to shut the fuck up.
FFS
deleted by creator
Removed by mod
He has no choice. He’s on a public internet forum making dumbass statements where everybody can see and react to them.
Just be thankful I bothered to break it down for him instead of roasting him outright.
The point that you’re missing is if you’re actually trying to change his mind, or just berate him publicly.
If its beration, then I guess carry on, though that makes for horrible reading by the rest of us, though it probably makes you feel very good for yourself.
And in the real world, when you say stupid shit, people are going to react honestly.
Because you would say the exact same thing to him to his face if you were both in a party in a room full of people, right?
There’s a good side, and there’s a bad side. One side is abducting and killing/raping everybody they see, while trying to expand their country back into soviet times. The other side is trying to survive. You calling them both bad is like saying “My neighbour and hitler are both bad, hitler killed jews, and my neighbour called me a bad name.”
The things you talk about do not compare at all.
Okay so you can’t read. Got it.
Just for clarity, I’m literally agreeing with you that Russia is in the wrong.
You are. But the both sides bit came in when you said Ukraine has bad stuff too.
So? Just because Russia is invading Ukraine doesn’t mean Ukraine’s actions OUTSIDE of the conflict are excused. Russia is wrong in invading Ukraine. But Ukraine has problems of its own too. If you don’t understand something as simple as that, then I’d strongly suggest you to not be as confident in your thinking.
No you said "I am a centrist, when I say both sides are bad, it doesn’t mean both sides are bad in every single conflict but that both sides have their issues. For example, Ukraine has a problem with Nazism, but that doesn’t mean they should be invaded by Russia.
The reason why this strawman meme like OP posted, gains traction is because most centrists don’t really bother wasting time and effort arguing online. ".
As a centrist you would have stated that you despise the person in the middle of the meme if anything and that’s it. As a centrist you would hate to be associated with a whataboutism spewing shitposter or worse a russian propaganda bot. You are not. While everyone here is on the same page about the Russia invasion you brought up irrelevant shit that has nothing to do with the russian invasion war that is going on right now. Why? Probably because you think playing devil’s advocate means being a centrist.
As a centrist: Russia is obviously wrong and nobody needed your affirmation for this and it doesnt matte if Ukraine had a Nazism Problem, because now the World has a Russia Problem.
Except that I posted more than one comment. And you conveniently ignored them lmao. Shameless.
Cite them. What else did you say that would make all the criticism you got unjust?
I read all your comments. You are not a centrist.https://lemm.ee/comment/4198075
I don’t care about “unjust criticism”. I believe Russia is totally wrong in this conflict. But that doesn’t mean the world should go full Canada and start celebrating actual SS Nazi soldiers in Parliament.
And I don’t need to prove whether I’m a centrist or not, the best answer I can give you is that both tankies and bigots disagree heavily with my views, I believe in seperation of economy from government (actual center right economic policy) while also believing that everyone should have the freedom to express themselves and right to basic needs, and freedom to immigrate (center/center left).
it doesn’t mean both sides are bad in every single conflict
But you’re implying it. You’re implying far greater equivalence exists than there is.
If English isn’t your native language, then let me help you.
both sides are bad
Is wrong. That is a final judgement, and it is wrong
both sides have faults
Is correct, and what you mean. It still isn’t good, but is closer to what you mean.
Also, on the topic of left, right, centrist and moderates (etc), you should be aware of the concept of the Overton Window. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window) I am not going to support the entirety of the concept, but the basic relevance is that “if the general trend of the times is for people to be more right wing, then what you thought was central becomes what was right wing in the past”. This is a fault / problem with describing an idiology not on its own, but only in relation to others.
Language is used for communicating ideas and thoughts, and if you don’t use it “correctly”, in the manner that other people use it, then you will be misunderstood.
deleted by creator
deleted by creator
Ukraine has a problem with Nazism, but that doesn’t mean they should be invaded by Russia.
This tells me that you both think that Putin invaded Ukraine because of the nazism (he didn’t) and that you shouldn’t invade a country for being full of nazis (you absolutely should) Congratulations, the average liberal once again managed to support the worst of both sides.
What in the fuck makes this person a “liberal”? sounds like a Fox News viewing trump supporter to me
Yes that’s why Fox News does that. It’s called poisoning the well. They do it to drive the narrative that the left and the right are equivalent.
yes, a Liberal
America has some stupid redefinition of these words, people like Thatcher, Regan, Clinton, Boris Johnson, etc… are all Liberals
this is just called pendantry. I’ve heard this a million times, but it doesn’t change a damned thing about how millions of people use the word. at that point it’s an alternate definition.
and how millions of people use the word doesn’t change how billions use the word, because this is literally an America vs. rest of the word thing
that’s fine I’m just telling you it doesn’t help anyone to pretend you don’t know what americans mean
There is a “peace organization” here in Sweden, Svenska Freds, that are hard core pacifists. No matter what - pacifists. Their reasoning is like children. War is bad, everybody should be friends, the end. Reality should conform to this simple principle.
In the early days of the invasion, their loud public stance was that Sweden should not support Ukraine with military equipment. Ukraine was just as bad as Russia for defending themselves with weapons when they should use reason and diplomacy.
Then they got all weepy in the media when people called them useful idiots for Russia.
Absolutely hate those sorts of people. I’m a pacifist too, but not at the cost of my own life.
Pacifism. Pacifism is objectively pro-Fascist. This is elementary common sense. If you hamper the war effort of one side you automatically help that of the other. Nor is there any real way of remaining outside such a war as the present one. In practice, ‘he that is not with me is against me’. The idea that you can somehow remain aloof from and superior to the struggle, while living on food which British sailors have to risk their lives to bring you, is a bourgeois illusion bred of money and security. Mr Savage remarks that ‘according to this type of reasoning, a German or Japanese pacifist would be “objectively pro-British”.’ But of course he would be! That is why pacifist activities are not permitted in those countries (in both of them the penalty is, or can be, beheading) while both the Germans and the Japanese do all they can to encourage the spread of pacifism in British and American territories. The Germans even run a spurious ‘freedom’ station which serves out pacifist propaganda indistinguishable from that of the P.P.U. They would stimulate pacifism in Russia as well if they could, but in that case they have tougher babies to deal with. In so far as it takes effect at all, pacifist propaganda can only be effective against those countries where a certain amount of freedom of speech is still permitted; in other words it is helpful to totalitarianism.
exert from Orwell on Pacifism and the war
There’s this codepink in u.s. thats like this organization too, except only think remarkable about them is when their website was flooded with signatures from trolls that said things like hating african americans, praising zelensky or putin AND hitler in same sentence and using putin’s credentials as if it were a regular signature.
Source?
This reminds me of that cunt Caitlin Johnstone saying the simple solution in Ukraine was detente. As if that is an option when you’re defending against the entire removal of your culture, history, heritage, and people.
deleted by creator
Removed by mod
So if your country was being invaded you’d just lie down and take it? Perhaps even say thank you? You’re naive to think that talking will magically solve things when you’re against an enemy who clearly doesn’t have the same moral standards as you. They’re attempting to take what they want with force, they’ve already demonstrated that they don’t care for niceties like negotiation.
Imagine trying to talk it out with a mugger. They don’t care what you want to talk about. They want your money.
Every downvote is a vote for death, hatred, and suffering of innocents
This makes you sound like those moronic Facebook posts that say things like “1 like = 1 prayer, ignore = you hate puppies”. It’s not a good look.
deleted by creator
Would I rather be alive and in a position to negotiate my freedom than dead?
I already gave you the mugger analogy, so one of three things is happening.
- You didn’t read what I said.
- You don’t understand what I said.
- You are purposefully ignoring what I said.
In any of these cases, it appears you are not debating in good faith. As such, I will no longer engage. Goodbye.
deleted by creator
Please go to Ukraine and test this routine on Russian soldiers, it will go really well for you, like that ad of Kendall Jenner solving racism with a Pepsi
deleted by creator
Oh most enlightened one, ye who stands upon the highest of moral ground, please share with us your illuminated opinion of how the Ukraine should have responded? Or for that matter, any enemy who wishes to take your land and kill your people.
Clearly you are the most learned among us, and have solved the puzzle of how to overcome a violent enemy without resorting to violence, so please I beg of you oh sage one to teach us your great wisdom so that we may be as ethically correct as you.
EDIT
Aww I missed their rage response, I am guessing they had no better response than “let the violent party take whatever they want”? Yeah cause that’s a super great plan, and definitely doesn’t incentivize more violence.
Removed by mod
Good Lawd, check your blood pressure, you look worrying with all these caps and bolds
deleted by creator
This guy would help the Russians if they invaded his country. Just vile.
deleted by creator
Here, let me bring some light into your understanding of the matter.
Imagine, and I want you to really visualize this, a large man has a visible gun on his belt. He demands that you strip nude and give him everything you have. There is no path you can run towards, he’s blocking the only exit and, again, has a gun. It just so happens that you also have a gun, and unlike his, yours is already drawn. What do you do?
deleted by creator
How funny, it seems you’re dodging the very simple question. Almost like you’re devoid of intellectual honesty.
deleted by creator
I advocate the defense of people and cities. You advocate their surrender. You would trade anything for peace, especially justice. You would rather have a negative peace than accept that the world is not as simple as you would like it to be, and there are some enemies who are simply not interested in negotiation. You are what we call a “useful idiot.”
deleted by creator
Where is the justice for the dead? Where? Where the fuck is the justice for the innocents who have had their lives turned upside down? The ones who would still be alive if aggression had not been the solution?
Those are some very good questions to ask the aggressor, Russia.
What justice is there in rolling over and saying, “no, we don’t have a right to self-determination in any way, please take anything you want, Russia!” If push came to shove you would be a collaborator, and aider and abetter of war crimes to save your own skin, and that cognitive dissonance makes you so uncomfortable that you put on this humanitarian act in order to maintain a moral high ground that does not exist. It is not virtuous to allow others to kill you, dominate you, and steal from you. It is monstrous to imply that Russia’s right to delusions of empire trump Ukraine’s right to determine their country’s affairs, and even more monstrous to use the death of innocents as a shield for your craven delusions that everything would be fine if people just gave the naked aggressors everything they want.
deleted by creator
So the solution is that the one side that already has a bunch of guns, gets to kill as many people on the other side, and we must not help the other side defend themselves?
Always give the aggressor everything they want and let them kill as many civilians as they need to.
Sure.
temporarily get some of what they want while things are worked out
Some of what they want = to own all of Ukraine, and for Ukrainians to not exist as a culture, let alone a nation.
There’s no temporary about it. There’s no “some of what they want” about it. Negotiations have been tried time and time again. Ceasefires have been tried, but guess what, Russia just bombarded the civilian evacuation corridors when they were negotiated because the goal is to kill as many Ukrainians as possible.
Putin is not rational, this is an ego war. I take it you were never bullied in school. You might not know what it’s like when someone’s main goal in life is to make yours hell. You can just lay on the ground and play dead, that won’t stop them from kicking you. There’s no talking your way out of it unless you yourself are at least as strong as the bully. This is what Russia is. A schoolyard bully. Any type of negotiated peace short of total capitulation is going to be nothing more than a way to catch Ukraine with its’ pants down and kill more Ukrainians and grab more territory. The only way Russia will stop killing innocent people is if they either run out of resources, or Putin himself gets deposed.
deleted by creator
Nothing quite like peacefully rolling tanks over the the border and killing the border guards, eh?
deleted by creator
WW2 happened because of retards like you.
deleted by creator
Man what a dogshit take lol
Lie and paint japan as a an evil, aggressive, horrible enemy? If anything allied propaganda was below the mark regarding just how evil the Japanese were. Nanjing? Manilla? Shanghai? Unit 731?
What a fucking idiot!
deleted by creator
y i k e s
I seem to remember a certain Jew that was a pacifist and advocated “turning the other cheek.” What a chump. /s
That same jew also violently threw merchants out of a temple. People are complicated.
Then faked a suicide by cop. Seriously, some people… I can’t even. /s
If you believe the Bible, then he was literally God. Zelensky isn’t that.
Have you seen his comedy show? He’s close enough… /s
Removed by mod
I was trying to show this poster the hypocrisy of their comment. Jesus was a pacifist, therefore we should be too.
*raped, tortured, and shot
The children were ravenous demons! Foaming at the mouth!
Our hands were forced. We had to kidnap them from their families we killed and send them to residential schools.
Omg, (after we killed their parents with missiles) we found all these poor orphans, abandoned!
Nazi Satanist drug-addicts, no doubt. It was self-defense.
deleted by creator
Are you suggesting violence?
Hopefully.
Fascists don’t understand anything else. Proof: Historydeleted by creator
Communists can’t be fascist, they have a thin veil of very conditional worker solidarity! They’re inherently good! Stalin was just misunderstood.
Ironically, the whole point of Leninism was that Russia wasn’t wealthy enough to be communist, and thus had to have state capitalism watched by a “vanguard party” (who are in theory supposed to keep the capital in check), so not even the Russians believed they did communism.
Nothing has ever been really tried, other people don’t exist they’re all projections of your mind.
I think NATO is a tool for capitalist imperialism and therefore fascist. Should we use violence against NATO?
You obviously cannot use your brain, otherwise you wouldn’t say such a stupid thing, but yes. If they were fascist then we should use violence to make them go away. Tiny problem. NATO is not that and you are an idiot for saying such a thing with seriousness.
Thanks for the joke and letting me answer it seriously.If NATO is supposed to be a defensive alliance, it should not operate outside of its own borders under any circumstances, yet it has done so multiple times in the past.
In theory it is an alliance of equals, but in practice it is an enforcer of the foreign policy of its most powerful member, the US. As with Russia in the USSR and the larger Warsaw Pact. If that wasn’t the case, the US would have no use for NATO and would just leave, which is what many European countries would want to avoid at all costs.
The way modern weapons work, defending from within your own borders just isn’t practical anymore. A simple example is those rockets constantly used for strikes in the middle east - often deployable from outside established borders.
The only true safeguard against those strikes is having a constant awareness of what’s going on - for instance, someone deploying thousands of soldiers right to the edge of their border without actually crossing.
Mhm. Sure buddy.
Great rebuke.
you know that the whole Middle East thing wasn’t due to NATO?
Europeans don’t want America to leave NATO? Sure wouldn’t know that from talking to them.
Don’t listen to me, maybe consider a think tanks opinion. >Source But yeah, I’m the idiot. /s
You know things have gone bad when you’re relying on a libertarian think tank literally founded by Charles Koch (as in, the Koch Brothers) as your source
Maybe a Lebanese source then. Maybe Venezuelan? Maybe a Marxist perspective? Oh wait, you want the neoliberalist to tell you when NATO is fascist. Good luck with your wait.
Yes you are. And i will leave it to the other people that have already told you why to continue. The mods here will probably delete this comment because I haven’t been nice to you :(((
I hope not. I respect the discourse despite the insults. Maybe try to see the world from a less Americanized lens.
I guess I know what you’re trying to say, but not even remotely close to what fascism means.
I know it’s not fascism by definition, it is metaphorical. Capitalism decays into fascism.
Capitalism doesn’t inherently decay into anything, it does help those who would enact fascism tho, but that is a VERY different beast.
Is it though? ;/
My friend NATO was started by a literal nazi, it’s not fascist because it’s imperialist. It’s fascist because it’s fascist.
deleted by creator
Is about Elon fucking up last month with starlink?
Don’t get Musky Billionaire involved please, he’s just puking out nonsense.
As is the protagonist in this comic. So it’s a fair assumption.
did china shoot children recently?
I dont get it.
i think its meant to be a ussr flag
russia is not close to being the ussr since the early 90s though
He didn’t say they were.
He said the Russian flag is apparently based on the Soviet flag.
Have you seen the Russian Federation flag?
Hint: it’d be hard to get them confused.
they are completely different flags
Yes…
That’s the point.
It’s weird how people across the political spectrum think they’re still the USSR
TBF, it’s not like modern Russia particularly objects to the idea
It very much does.
I think people tend to confuse Russian irredentism with wanting to bring back communism when all they really want is the USSR’s borders. Which were, mind you, largely the Russian Empire’s borders.
If the Russian oligarchy is going to force a return to their roots I feel like they’d just bring back the monarchy.
There certainly is a socialist movement in Russia that wouldn’t mind returning to a socialist state but there are very few who actually want to return to a totalitarian one, and if it’s not totalitarian it’s not really what people mean by the USSR, is it?
I was talking more about wanting the prestige back
it’s not like modern Russia particularly objects to the idea
Here is correction for you: it’s not like Putin objects to the image of empire.
But he don’t want everything else that came with USSR like good schools, good hospitals, good wages for teachers and doctors, housing for everyone. Because money spent on anything above is money not spent on his yacht.
USSR was 15 countries including Ukraine.
I mean, yes, definitely they have. But they were probably Uyghurs or something so sympathizers don’t mind.
There’s a lot of context clues, do we need to start making remedial memes for the slow kids?
the context clue being…? ukraine is at war with china now?
You know who Ukraine is at war with don’t you? Obviously the flag is representing them. Surprised I needed to spell it out, it was already drawn in crayons for you.
russian flag is not red. it hasnt been for 3 decades, i assume you are aware of it?
Removed by mod
if they meant to represent russia why use the chinese flag?
are you the kind of people this piece of propaganda aimed for?
Because nobody cares. Slava Ukraini. Fuck Russia.
What flag is that on the right
I think it’s a version of the USSR flag, with an X instead of the hammer and sickle.
Wasn’t Ukraine part of the USSR?
Yes, but USSR hasn’t existed for about 3 decades and when it stopped existing, the Soviet Republics were liberated.
So Ukraine and 14 other countries were liberated from… Whom?
A country that no longer exists, but a megalomaniac is trying to start a reunion tour. Thankfully they haven’t been as successful as they would like to be.
Megalomaniac is trying to start colonization tour. To be fair he helps EU enlargement, so you are also right in some way.
deleted by creator
Only devil’s advocate in war I will ever advocate for is “what happens to the populace when their government eventually gets collapsed”
Russian government is corrupt as hell and the military is fucked, dont get me wrong, but if we get a repeat of Brazil/Korea/etc. where a ‘west-friendly’ dictator is installed, I would rather them be under their current gov
Whether a Western-backed dictator would be better or worse is hard to say. All dictators are, of course, terrible, but it’s difficult to discern just how terrible each one is before they come to power. In any case, we can and should demand better of our governments than that. We may be deeply flawed democracies, but we are still democracies, and must stand in support of our ideals, not dictators, no matter how West-friendly. Fuck, at least some of the time.
From history, the dictators are never better than the alternative. USA owned West Germany hiring ex-Nazi elites to run the gov, Pinochet refining torture methods for the CIA, all of South Korea’s dictators post-Korean War
I meant some dictators are better than others, not that some dictators are better than less autocratic forms of government.
deleted by creator
Yeah, sure. Go ahead. Compare American-backed dictators and non-American-backed dictators.
Not a lot of difference.
there actually is, the amount of civilians killed, because unlike the soviets, the Americans kept a leash of theirs.
like you want to compare dictators? while bad, Pinochet killed fewer people than pol-pot
the Americans kept a leash of theirs.
Not really.
like you want to compare dictators? while bad, Pinochet killed fewer people than pol-pot
Pol Pot was supported by China, not the Sovs. What’s more, Pol Pot was hardly an ‘average’ outcome.
Do Brazil and NK have West friendly leaders? First I’ve heard.
deleted by creator
Does it count if the last president wasn’t pro West and did everything a Russian asset would do?
North Korea is as it is BECAUSE of what the US did to South Korea. When your neighbor, previous countrymen get taken over by a foreign occupying force and you have no allies to protect you, you get weird and reclusive in self-defense
what are you talking about? North Korea is literally the Chinese created Buffer state, if you want to talk about legitimacy, the state of Korea before the China/Russia backed civil war (North Korea somehow had modern Russian MIGs, and most of their army spoke only Chinese) is what because south Korea.
North Korea is an isolationist because it is a despotic dictatorship.
It’s Russia. It will be a dictator or nothing, it is their culture and has been for centuries.
Yeah-yeah. All Russian are genetic slaves and should be sanctioned, cross border naked and only on foot, except those who have millions of stolen money in bank account are definetly not genetic slaves, but honorary citizens.
That’s not quite what I meant, but I understand how it could be taken that way. I’m just kind of sour because they had ridiculous strongman after ridiculous strongman in the Tsars, had a genuine worker’s revolt, and then squandered it on ridiculous strongman after ridiculous strongman, then that government folded only to be replaced by a ridiculous strongman. The Russian people deserve way better than that, but it sort of seems like they don’t feel like better is possible. I can sympathize, Americans are similar that way, and I think Americans will elect empty suit after empty suit, because American culture is superficial in the same way that Russian culture is fatalistic about power and corruption.
deleted by creator
News flash that nobody knows: Nicholas II was not a strong man. He didnt even want the job, and his cousin Kaiser William had to teach him how to Czar.
Okay, so everyone who is reading this but isn’t up on their early 20th century history knows - Nicholas II did not particularly want to be Tsar. But he considered it his duty and divine position to be an ‘unshakeable autocrat’ anyway who opposed democratic reforms at every turn. Nicholas had to have one of his close relatives threaten to shoot himself in the head with a revolver in front of Nicholas before Nicholas allowed the protesters their demands for a very defanged parliament in 1905.
Also, it was not a genuine worker’s revolt. WWI happened because the German and Russian parliaments declared war while Nich and William were trying to find ways to avoid it.
This is also hogwash. The February Revolution was a genuine worker’s revolt characterized by spontaneous mass strikes, riots, and refusal of orders by war-weary soldiers at the front once they heard of the unrest. WW1 was a tangled mess, but neither Kaiser Wilhelm nor Nicholas searched in earnest for solutions, because they thought the other parties would back down, or that it would be a short war. Neither, of course, was true. But they were genuinely friendly in their correspondence on account of the royal families of Europe being one somewhat inbred family tree, so some historical revisionists like to assume that they’re innocent.
Germany could not compete against the sheer number of bodies that Russia could send to the front, so they exiled Lenin to Russia to destabilize it with the intention of assassinating him afterwards and taking over.
Another inaccuracy. Germany didn’t have trouble with the ‘sheer number of bodies’ that Russia could send to the front. The Eastern Front in WW1 they were actually considerably successful in. It was simply a desire to refocus all of their forces, and Austro-Hungary’s, to other fronts by ending the war with Russia sooner. Lenin did not arrive in Russia until the February Revolution had already occurred.
It did not go as planned, as Nicholas was glad to abdicate, thinking that one of the Eurpean royal family would allow he and his to retire in a countryside villa somewhere. That also did not go as planned.
It was not a lack of offers from other royal families that condemned him, it was the fact that the workers soviets’ hated his fucking guts and would have killed him if the Provisional Government tried to ferry him out.
deleted by creator
I personaly don’t give rat’s arse what happens to russians when their government collapses. They brought it onto themselves, both by being “apolitical about it all” or by supporting and cheering the government all the way back ten years ago when it was just “little green men” and “polite people”.
And how about the millions who weren’t okay with Putin, but were forced into silence because one person can’t fight governmental tyranny? Like, I don’t support Russia’s invasion and I think Putin needs to pay, but do millions of Russians who had no say whatsoever (and were brainwashed for decades through expertly crafted propaganda) deserve to starve alongside their children for the actions of a monster?
If you say ‘yes’, then tell me if all Americans deserve to suffer the consequence of Trump’s presidency when the majority didn’t even vote for the guy.
Yes, because none of them stood up against Putin.
Trump didn’t invade Mexico tho
What, you expected people to stand up against a tinpot dictator who would happily torture them and their families? Would you do that?
And Trump was literally about to take the final step towards killing democracy in America. He might not have invaded Mexico during his term, but he sure was setting up the environment where he could’ve gotten away with it and quashed any protest against it.
What, you expected people to stand up against a tinpot dictator who would happily torture them and their families? Would you do that?
yes. it’s a family tradition after all, sometimes there ARE things worth dying for.
And Trump was literally about to take the final step towards killing democracy in America. He might not have invaded Mexico during his term, but he sure was setting up the environment where he could’ve gotten away with it and quashed any protest against it.
most of the military was not on Trumps side, it at best would have sparked a civil war, and the trump-tards aren’t that great in number
As a brazilian being screwed by our corrupt communist president but hate the US imperialism as well, we should just nuke Brazil ☺️
Learn what communism is lol
Or social democracy, which actually works
He is literally in the brazilian Worker’s Party, which unsurprisingly is a communist party, and also said “being called a communist is something to be proud of”. I am stating facts.
If I say I’m an Olympic Athlete I don’t suddenly become an Olympic Athlete.
People can say they’re communist all they want but I’ve never heard of a “””communist””” leader that wasn’t just a fascist in disguise.
Ok
deleted by creator
Lmao mf thinks I like Bolsonaro
deleted by creator
Why so you think that, people that uses insults instead of arguments?
deleted by creator
Lemmy is becoming reddit lmao
I meant Pinochet not Lula, Lula is chill
Pinochet is Chile. I don’t remember who the Brazilian dictator was.
Getúlio Vargas? Idk about Chile, but at least in Brazil, in most places, Getúlio is considered a national hero
I think they meant the later dictatorship spawned from the 1964 coup, the US-backed one.
Oh, the Regime Militar, oh yeah, that happened, but US didn’t really “intervene”, the dictators were really just american friendly most of the time
We didn’t end up intervening, but we were definitely in full support of their efforts. I guess this is really all semantics in the end.
Lula getting ignored at UN 💀
Removed by mod
According to the rules of this community, you need to prove that claim:
- Nazi Symbols on Ukraine’s Front Lines Highlight Thorny Issues of History: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/05/world/europe/nazi-symbols-ukraine.html
Rule 2: No misinformation
Don’t post any intentional misinformation. When asked by mods, provide sources for any claims you make.
Removed by mod
It’s called “Azov Assault Brigade” now, expanded in February 2023:
- Azov Brigade: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Brigade
Rule 2: No misinformation
Don’t post any intentional misinformation. When asked by mods, provide sources for any claims you make.
Wtf pugjesus… i though you were based… and now you are pulling this type of bullshit that the dumbass partisans idiots pull to shit on people that have a non extreme point of view that ends up not allining with theirs?
Cmon m8 we can do better than this, if anybody is arguing seriously that the invaders are as bad as the invaded, they are either dumb, tankies (mostly both), CCP/Russia shills, trolls or litteral children on a “comrade” face, (and therefore neither of these should be taken seriously) not centrist and neither people that are looking for the truth of the things argue that the victim here is the villian, and the ones that do are not doing it on good fate and are not looking for a middle point.
And the worst part is that there isnt really a middle point in that situation, the only one i could think of is that war is bad and colonialism is bad (cuz thats whats looks to me russia is trying to do here to Ukcraine) and even then those point at the fact that the main instigator here (Russia) is the bad guy.
Its like that other dumb post that was looking to shit on non extreme viewpoints trying to shit on centrism putting it between genocide and not genocide, like wtf one of those is a ridiculusly extreme point that cant have a middle ground, so the main point of that dumb post was to justify lashing against those that doesnt allign to either extreme stance by grouping them with the people they dont like, and with partisan shills it thends to be the other political party, even if one cant really form part of that party since one can be not an US citicen.
Not sorry for long text btw.
Do better.
Man, I’m not here saying “If you don’t support The People’s Party you are One Of Them”. I’m not trying to say that everyone who doesn’t support Fully Automated Gay Luxury Space Communism is a Reactionary Dog, or that there are no moderate positions which are valid. I’m criticizing the self-professed centrists and moderates who argue that ‘both sides’ are guilty in the war and for that reason, we shouldn’t be involved. You can say they’re dumb, and you might be right, but they exist in non-negligible numbers.
Bipartisan is working with both sides, I think you mean partisan, taking a side. Confused me for a moment.
Oh… ok true on the partisan stuff… im gonna change that.
And im glad to hear that your take is more nuanced than what i though before.
But the meme itself still gives me those partisian american culture war bs vibes that i described before, so thats why i got the wrong idea.
I give you the status of based while the metodology of the meme is not based unfurtunatelly.
🙏
More people should get used to the idea that being “partisan”, taking a side, is not in itself a horrible thing.
Not to compare all current political situations, but to just demonstrate a conflict with “sides”: Side A is a baby. They want to eat their lollipop. Side B is an escaped criminal who wants to drown the baby in acid. I will be partisan and say that I sincerely hope for all people to firmly take Side A, and offer not even half an allowance to Side B.
America has won some of these culture wars before, in positive ways; if you’ll remember what sort of things we supported/fought against about a hundred years ago.
Im gonna copy and modify a little of a comment i already made to answer yah m8:
The thing is that taking a centrist POV doesnt really looks to find a middle point between one extreme and the other, it looks to find a naunced take on it or the one thats colser to the truth, and offc the more naunced take would be no war (in the case of this meme but in the baby case it would be no killing baby), but in this meme its kinda perversed into partisian thinking like the US culture war bs does, that if you not agree with every single thing my side says then you are a tankie, and i dont whana be a tankie, they are not based, but while i agree mostly with what your side says, somethimes they can say or do some things that i dont like and i whant to be able to disagree with them.
Now i dont really have any good example for the war situation since Russia is clearly the bad guy in that one and the one thats comiting more war crimes if trying to colonise another country isnt enough of a war crime, the only thing i could think of is the videos of russian soldiers being killed by drones where in the comments are full of assholes rallying and yelling horrible things about the dead russian guy, and praiseing its dead. I mean, i like to watch fucked up videos like most people but like… rallying like that is just straight up wrong, the poor guy was probably some russian kid that got forcibly drafted into the army because he was caught smoking weed or something, it reminds me a lot of the 1984 book where they had like a “Hate hour” or something like that where they put a mob in front of a giant telescreen and put images of a enemy of the government (dont remember his name but he was pretty much Throtchsky) and rallied people against it and started shouting like an angry mob and as soon as it stoped everyone stoped.
And an example with the baby part, i might be stretching things to far, but being so young it really shouldnt be eating candy all day and i think it should be fed less candy and more healty food. Again im really steetching this but im trying to present an example about it.
they are either dumb, tankies (mostly both), CCP/Russia shills, trolls or litteral children on a “comrade” face,
Unfortunately this is a non trivial group, and they need to be reminded often that they are idiots. I’ve seen far too many “left wing” people take the position that Ukraine should just roll over and that it’s all someone else except for Russia’s fault.
They need to be made aware that they are taking a pro Russian imperialism position, and asked how they would feel if it was instead the US invading the Philippines because they wanted closer ties to China, or something along those lines.
War is undesirable, but ironically it’s necessary for having a positive peace. If people give into aggressive demands all the time because they’ll otherwise wage war, you still end up with peace, but it’s a negative peace. It’s servitude.
Russia can unilaterally end this war, and the world needs to keep putting pressure on them to do so.
The thing is that they do not take those reminders and go “Yeah i was wrong, im gonna change my believes” when they see this shit, they go “YEEE mOrE wEsTeRN pRouPAgAnDa hEil MeOW, whiNniE puu iS rASceisT nnhhhhiiiiieeeeeeeee (starts playing the USSR anthem)”.
And besides my critiscism was against the fact that centrism doesnt really looks to find a middle point between war and not war, it looks to find a naunced take on it or the one thats colser to the truth, and offc the more naunced take would be no war, but in this meme its kinda perversed into partisian thinking like the US culture war bs does, that if you not agree with every single thing my side says then you are a tankie, and i dont whana be a tankie, they are not based, but while i agree mostly with what your side says, somethimes they can say or do some things that i dont like and i whant to be able to disagree with them.
Now i dont really have any good example for this situation since Russia is clearly the bad guy in that one and the one thats comiting more war crimes if trying to colonise another country isnt enough of a war crime, the only thing i could think of is the videos of russian soldiers being killed by drones where in the comments are full of assholes rallying and yelling horrible things about the dead russian guy, and praiseing its dead. I mean, i like to watch fucked up videos like most people but like… rallying like that is just straight up wrong, the poor guy was probably some russian kid that got forcibly drafted into the army because he was caught smoking weed or something, it reminds me a lot of the 1984 book where they had like a “Hate hour” or something like that where they put a mob in front of a giant telescreen and put images of a enemy of the government (dont remember his name but he was pretty much Throtchsky) and rallied people against it and started shouting like an angry mob and as soon as it stoped everyone stoped.
deleted by creator
Putin dick must be tasty
deleted by creator
How in the fuck is that relevant? Dipshits always think they’ve “got me” with this stupid shit. You don’t.
Removed by mod
Look at that. A homophobic fascist.
deleted by creator
implying that is a bad thing.
There’s your projection. Having Putin’s dick in your mouth is a bad thing, I don’t give a fuck what genitals you prefer. God I hate people
I don’t blame Ukraine for defending their home, but I do blame the US for pulling strings everywhere and causing tensions that lead to war. It’s something that has happened again and again, and no one really cares because it’s usually not a problem of the West.
Yeah, remember when the US forced Russia to invade Crimea and prop up separatist republics in eastern Ukraine? It’s a shame we’re so set on causing tensions. /s
The /s is unnecessary. The date is November 21th, 2013.
Oh no, don’t tell me you’re one of the “Euromaidan was a CIA plot” people
Where’s your source that the US forced Russia to invade Ukraine?
deleted by creator
causing tensions that lead to war.
To be fair with Ukraine it is Putin and his propaganda that caused tensions.
All considered it is Russia’s fault, but not only Russia’s. We’d be talking about a different history if the US weren’t so expansionist and threatening.
Expansionist? When was the last time the US tried to annex foreign territory?
Wrong choice of words. What I meant was fucking over the whole globe for their national interests.
Ok ill bite, how did the us pull strings
tl;dw Fossil Fuels
Yeah I remember when that video came out
conveniently skipped:
- 2014 US-organized coup
- previous US “democracy support” investments ranging in billions
- Sevastopol naval base
- Zelensky threatening to go nuclear, NATO, and take back Crimea
- Putin going literally “wtf you guys doing” from all that weeks before invasion
There is no evidence to support that the US organised a coup in ukraine and the rest is a non issue.
