Freed Israeli hostages erupted in anger during a tense meeting on Tuesday with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, saying that they were terrified they would be killed by Israeli airstrikes on Gaza instead of their Hamas captors.
“We were in tunnels, terrified that it would not be Hamas, but Israel, that would kill us, and then they would say Hamas killed you,” the woman from the southern Israeli village of Nir Oz near the Gaza border said
Wait until they hear about Bibi’s plan to flood all the tunnels and drown the hostages.
I’ve heard about it, the tunnels are so large it’s going to take weeks to fill them if they try, and even then only if the tunnels are completely dense and solid, otherwise the water will leak into the ground and destroy some of their fresh groundwater.
Why, what did you hear because you said it all hyperbolic and provocative like…
Yeah the “let’s drown the tunnels” plan seems like an idea that would have been discarded ages ago. The IDF has an entire unit that does the tunnel warfare and this obvious idea is not on their strategy list so it’s most likely stupid.
Some guy in the israeli government probably thought he was really smart but it’s one of the first things that anyone in tunnel warfare would have thought of.
One of the freed hostages talked about that in the article. Her husband is still being held. They appear to know.
Will it be drinkable water because that is in short supply. The innocent Palestinians in Gaza would certainly appreciate some potable water.
Why use potable water when the ocean is right there?
The plan isn’t to create a rapid flood but rather to gradually render the tunnels unusable.
I’m sure they’ll exercise caution in this endeavor /s
There are no pumps in existence that can flash flood miles of tunnels in minutes.
IDF says they have like 3-4 pumps that can fill an Olympic swimming pool in 7 minutes. While impressive, 7 mins is a long time to exit a pool.
that’s fair
Which may be even worse?
Since hamas is going to prioritize leadership, personnel, and equipment/materials in that order. If they get all their spare ammo and AKs out then MAYBE they’ll go back for the hostages.
At least a rapid flooding would kill hamas terrorists too.
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I mean in this case the testimony is the fact.
what are you talking about? Jpost and times of Israel are somewhat opposed to each other,
They agree on most things though. Both print some nasty anti-Palestinian opinions.
There are multiple reports now about IDF killing people in the Rave to not be hostages. In addition, I don’t think a person who have no regards of a child live to care about hostages.
Remember, IDF is created by desolving two recognized terrorist groups by UK and USA.
Yet the US and UK gave them unconditional support…
Do you have a good resource for that? All I can find are unsubstantiated claims and refutations of said claims. With the only thing that might hold any water being speculation that israeli police and hamas may have caught civilians in the crossfire but even that is pretty weak and I can’t find anything other than “it probably happened because it almost always happens when police open fire”.
https://www.aap.com.au/factcheck/viral-post-seeks-to-change-festival-massacre-narrative/
The world is already full of enough misinformation. So how about we don’t shit on the memory of murdered civilians and use them to build a narrative to benefit politicians?
Here is one from today with quotes from Israelis.
https://thegrayzone.com/2023/12/05/israeli-captives-confirms-hostages-killed-israeli-fire/
Is that during the Oct 7 massacre (aka “the Rave”)? Or is that when they were being held hostage in Gaza?
Because I think even the IDF has acknowledged they probably murdered some hostages while they were indiscriminately bombing and ethnically cleansing the Palestinians. But what the previous poster implied was that the IDF were murdering people during the massacre… which reeks of “false flag operation” conspiracy theories.
Here’s the media basis report on the source:
- Reasoning: Propaganda, Conspiracies, False Claims
- Bias Rating: FAR LEFT
- Factual Reporting: MIXED
- Country: USA
- Press Freedom Rating: MOSTLY FREE
- Media Type: Website
- Traffic/Popularity: Medium Traffic
- MBFC Credibility Rating: LOW CREDIBILITY
speculation that israeli police and hamas may have caught civilians in the crossfire
The releasee is quoted in the article linked as saying they were fired on by IDF helicopters after being taken hostage.
Obviously assigning motive is going to be speculation. Was the IDF deliberately killing hostages? Seems unlikely to me. Deliberately careless with the lives of hostages when trying to kill Palestinians? Based on the looser use of force rules we’ve seen from the IDF that seems perfectly possible.
how about we don’t shit on
shhhh come now. Don’t feed the internet outrage machine. Better to keep a neutral tone so you don’t shut down rational argument.
The IDF has a public policy not to allow hostage-taking and even killing the hostage if necessary. It’s controversial but not a new policy.
The link you gave said this was a military policy used.on military, not civilians.
It also appears they stopped doing it a decade ago, according to your source.
If you read the link there’s a controversy on whether they stopped at all. Many of the families of hostages and the released hostages have accused the Israeli government of trying to kill them.
Yeah. I am not going to be “neutral” any time people are ignoring who actually murdered and raped civilians because attributing their deaths to someone else is more politically expedient. I do the same any time someeone DARES to talk about “crisis actors” with regard to the daily school shooting in the US.
I don’t fucking care about “the internet outrage machine”. I care about the people who suffered regardless of what side they are on. The very least we can do for the dead is to respect why they died. That includes who pulled the trigger and why.
so, you’re calling out the IDF killing 10 Gazans for every Israeli death? or do those not count?
Sorry. Are you incapable of doing two things at once?
ok so you are, and not just coming with the copout of “but Hamas human shields so IDF absolved”, now what about the farce that is acting as if this shit started in October of this year
The very least we can do for the dead is to respect why they died. That includes who pulled the trigger and why.
“why” includes things such as the persecution of the Palestinian people by Israel. It also included (alleged) manipulation and empowerment of Hamas by Iran.
Here is an idea: try to read the posts you respond to. Rather than just immediately categorizing it into one of many straw men.
The rape claim is false and unsubstantiated. A lie by the IDF. Just like the 40 beheaded babies
Zero evidence is available I have tried looking for it. Hamas did not rape anyone on Oct7.
They did kill non combatants. They did not rape anyone.
Look harder
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67629181
And please, actually read the article. Including the horrific depictions of mutilation and mass rape. Understand what you are defending when you say shit like this. Because just because the Israeli Government have been locking Palestinians in an open air concentration camp for decades does not mean that Hamas are not just as evil as any other Islamic State organization.
Your article basically said “we BBC journalists saw a video of people that said they saw a gang rape, no rape kits or videos of it or any evidence though, trust me bro israel wouldn’t lie”
Try reading the article you linked. You’re linking a known propaganda outlet that verbatim quotes IDF propaganda with 0 evidence. The same site that spread the “40 beheaded babies” lie.
I recommend you watch this Owen Jones video about the israeli attack montage they only show to journalists. Israel put all the worst stuff they could find into that video but there was zero evidence of rape.
So because there is not explicit footage of Hamas engaging in rape, the following is irrelavent?
Videos of naked and bloodied women filmed by Hamas on the day of the attack, and photographs of bodies taken at the sites afterwards, suggest that women were sexually targeted by their attackers.
Videos filmed by Hamas include footage of one woman, handcuffed and taken hostage with cuts to her arms and a large patch of blood staining the seat of her trousers.
In others, women carried away by the fighters appear to be naked or semi-clothed.
Multiple photographs from the sites after the attack show the bodies of women naked from the waist down, or with their underwear ripped to one side, legs splayed, with signs of trauma to their genitals and legs.
Even if you believe that there is a focused effort to plant government agents at every single level and with multiple aide organizations all to promote some evil conspiracy: The above is footage and images that reporters (and civilians who click the wrong links online…) have seen.
I realize people have difficulty understanding people (that they misguidedly think) are fighting for a cause they care about can do no wrong but… Hamas is REALLY fucking evil and so is erasing the suffering of these women because it doesn’t support your “Freedom fighters” narrative.
not going to be “neutral”
Apologies for the misunderstanding. Not neutral as not taking sides, neutral as in neutral tone. Calm, to the point and not full of anger and high emotion.
Moral outrage is a biological response to horror, but that warm feeling of righteous indignation does not help anyone. It makes anyone who might need to hear what you have to say instantly stop listening.
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baby you can cry about tone policing all you want, but you are being extremely abrasive which is why people don’t want to talk to you.
You’re not being tone policed, you think you can just act like an asshole if you have a good enough reason.
This is obvious to anyone who thinks about it
He didn’t care about the hostages though he just used them to justify attacking Gaza. His family is fine why would he care about them?
This whole narrative I keep seeing that says Hamas hides amongst civilians is really fucking dumb because quite honestly that’s how 99% of wars against a larger, more powerful force have been fought.
It’s what the Jews did themselves in Prague in the ghettos
And if you know they hide amongst civilians, you would assume they hide their hostages in the same places.
So if you just go off and bomb and kill 17000 people indiscriminately, you are yourself proving you don’t give a fuck about the hostages
Guerilla warfare being an established concept doesn’t make it immune to criticism. You can still criticize Hamas even if their tactics are similar to your example about the Jews in Prague.
I’m not siding with IDF I just don’t think this argument holds a lot of weight.
And the vietnamese…
If there’s anything to learn from history, it’s that if a group is doing guerilla warfare, the ones fighting them are the bad guys.
It’s almost like Hamas deliberately put them in harm’s way to make life difficult for Israel.
The tunnels are the safest places in Gaza. The thing is: There’s nowhere safe in Gaza.
Keeping hostages amongst military personnel is not how you keep them safe.
Gazan civilians haven’t exactly been safe. The fact is: At any time, anywhere in Gaza could be bombed, Hamas presence or not.
Oh fuck off.
No.
Would the hostage exchange have happened already if not for the airstrikes? I suspect that the answer is no. Given that the airstrikes didn’t kill the hostages, it seems unreasonable to blame Netanyahu for a counterfactual.
There were direct offers for hostage exchanges from Hamas before the airstrikes. If anything the demands from Hamas after the airstrikes became higher than before them.
There have been confirmed hostages killed by Israeli airstrikes, under which the bibas family with the 10 month old baby and the mom.
Some hostages were held above ground and it doesn’t seem like israel cares about retrieving them alive.
There were direct offers for hostgse exchanges from Hamas before th airstrikes. If anything the demands from Hamas after the airstrikes became higher than before them.
What’s your source for this?
8 October 1 day after the attack. already in the newspapers : Hamas Demands Total Prisoner Release, Leaving Israel in a Catch-22
The demands are higher since Hamas rejected israel’s demand of only alive hostages. The ceasefire ended because the israelis didn’t want the dead Bibas family back that they bombed to death themselves.
Are you referring to the demand to release “all Palestinian prisoners” in exchange for the hostages? That would have been a ratio of Palestinian prisoners to Israeli hostages much less favorable to Israel than the ratio they actually got during the ceasefire.
But, based on your own justification, that would be fine, wouldn’t it? At least they’d have the hostages back alive, right? That’s justified because you get the people back alive, right?
Or can you only justify killing with the return of hostages?
My justification of what? The airstrikes? I’m not justifying them by by connecting them to the release of the hostages - I think they’re justified as part of the war that’s going on and their effect on hostage negotiations is secondary.
The best strategy for winning the war is not the same as the best strategy for getting the hostages back. Netanyahu appears to be prioritizing winning the war and for that he’s getting a lot of criticism from people who would prioritize getting the hostages back. I’m just saying that this particular criticism, which focuses on the counterfactual scenario in which the hostages that have been released were killed by airstrikes instead, is not reasonable. After all, they weren’t killed and they’re free now; in their case, Israeli policy has been successful.
That would have been a ratio of Palestinian prisoners to Israeli hostages much less favorable to Israel than the ratio they actually got during the ceasefire.
I love how you’re not questioning why Israel has political prisoners.
I didn’t use the word “political” anywhere.
A large number of Palestinian prisoners is political prisoners held without trial.
They are not just demanding the Palestinian prisoners. They also demand the release of all Palestinian hostages kidnapped by israel.
The ratio during the ceasefire was for non-combatants. Zero soldiers have been exchanged so far.
Looking at past conflicts israeli soldiers have gone for a 3-1000 rate and Hamas currently has like 60 soldiers in captivity.
Yeah the airstrikes if anything delayed the hostage exchanges
Ends justify the means, you mean?
I mean, sometimes, yes. That is how war works.
People don’t generally kill people for shits and giggles. They do it because they think something is so important that it’s worth killing for. The tricky bit is of course that people tend to argue quite a lot about what falls in that category.
No one would criticize you if, when defending yourself from a random attacker, you accidentally pushed him off a ledge and he fell to his death, or even if you intentionally did it to save yourself.
War tends to be more complicated than that, but the vast majority of people can find some ends that will acceptable justify quite a lot of means.
I dunno. That’s an easy line to cross for most military orgs. For me personally I couldn’t live with it.
We should be counting the cost before making choices that end up murdering innocent people simply because we’re afraid of them.
so as long as you feel it justified, killing is ok?
if China were to just shell Taiwan with phosgene in order to break the island defenses, that would be fine? I mean, in this hypothetical it was required for China to liberate their island, and China does inherently believe that they are the rightful owners of Taiwan.
what about nukes? if Russia says it had enough in Ukraine and nuke Kyiv, is that acceptable? because by your logic it is.
because to those respective people, these atrocities are in the goal of something worth committing them for.
your argument boils down to; “if someone did something, they must have good reason to have done so, and how can we criticize them for that?”
Either you believe that killing can be justified in a non-zero set of circumstances, or that it can never be justified.
The vast majority of people fall into the first camp, and most in the second camp will change their minds when a gun is pointed at them.
You seem to be ignoring the existence of objective reality and responding to the strawman of literally everything just being subjective vibes, which isn’t worth the time it’d take to respond further.
so you present a false dichotomy of accepting the most depraved realpolitik understanding of the world or radical self-destructive pacifism
This isn’t about “objective reality” though, it’s about subjective thought. You present a case that justifies killing that has no bearing on the situation. Israel is not under existential threat from Hamas, no matter what rhetoric they spawn. They’re not fighting for life, for existence. They’re killing to control. To have ultimate say of everything in what they perceive as their domain. That’s not self-defense, that’s aggression, pure and simple.
You can justify self-defense when your life is truly in danger, but that wasn’t the case. The case was that they found an excuse to kill people to justify their own authority. To blame someone else for all the evils of the world, and take no blame themselves. They killed for the glory, for the power, for the control. Not for defense. That’s a cheap excuse to shield from objective reality.
Yes, but we’re not talking about accidentally killing someone who’s attacking you, we’re talking about willfully ignoring the lives of those in the way of you and the person you’re trying to kill.
People don’t generally kill people for shits and giggles.
First war or exposure to a history book?
