But that district court judge, Sarah Wallace, ultimately ruled that Trump could remain on the ballot because she said it was not clear that the drafters or ratifiers of the 14th Amendment intended to cover the presidency in the insurrection clause.
This part really pissed me off. The 14th amendment is pretty clear that it refers to any and all people. Is it just me, or is judge Wallace implying that it isn’t clear that the founders believed the president is a person?
It does apply to the President. Colorado’s judge erred here because they did not have access to Federal documents.
We have the minutes from the 39th Congress that literally indicates that it applies to the President.
Why did you omit to exclude them [The office of the President and Vice President]?
— Sen. Reverdy Johnson (D-MD)
Let me call the Senator’s attention to the words ‘or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States’
— Sen. Lot Morrill (R-MA)
It was a very specific question that was answered by the Senate while they were discussing it. So Judge Wallace’s determination is incorrect on the merits. Judges can be wrong sometimes, that’s why we have appeals.
You assume that the originalists on the court care what the framers of the amendment thought, when it goes against the decision they want to render.
Do you think the judge on Colorado was an originalist who made their ruling in bad faith, or that they are just evade responsibility for the ruling?
Cool, I want to read it, which session and pages was it?
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Awesome, thanks for sharing
Here’s the relevant page for anyone to lazy too click through. He even goes on to say “perhaps I am wrong as to the exclusion of the presidency, no doubt I am.”
There was also some interesting debate on if it should expire after 1870, and the response was a pretty resounding no, it should be the law of the land forever. Some people recently have also pointed out the phrase about giving congress the power to enact laws to these effect, suggesting it doesn’t do anything unless congress makes a specific law enforcing it. That didn’t seem to be the view when they added it in to the amendment though, they wanted to say congress explicitly had that power so that it could override state law if states were in conflict with the constitution here. There was a concern that if they didn’t add that, then only states would have the power by definition (any powers not explicitly given to the federal government are devolved to the states), and confederate states might choose not to enforce all the provisions of the fourteenth amendment. This would let congress explicitly over ride state laws in respect to equal protection and other parts of the amendment including the insurrection part. Obligatory IANAL disclaimer, but it was very interesting to read through. Some of the things I’m referencing were from an earlier day, may 23rd, there were a number of days where the amendment was brought up.
Oh they actually talked to each other and weren’t forced to direct their questions to the chair?
Senate not House.
I thought the insurrection clause was a hard reach, but it feels really buttoned up when you take into account the discussions. Like I don’t even see any maneuvering room. Which kinda sucks because I had emotionally accepted he was going to be the nominee and now I have hope.
What’s really interesting is, what if he stays off the ballot in CO but wins the race? He’s be the President of the US but ineligible to be President in CO. Seems like an actual constitutional crisis unless the SCOTUS ruling automatically removes him from every state.
If SCOTUS rules that trump can be removed from the Colorado ballot there will be a domino effect that will see him removed from a large number of other states.
There’s zero chance of a 2nd trump term if SCOTUS rules that way.
That’s not exactly true. Unless some battleground states remove him from the ballot it doesn’t matter what the states who were going to vote blue do. He wasn’t going to win there anyway. As a Colorado voter I would put us in that category. Trump’s not winning CO no matter what happens in this case.
Surely if the supreme court ruled that if he wasn’t eligible in one state then any single person in other states could use that ruling to have him removed from any state they live in?
That would depend on which interpretation of eligible we end up with. We might see a ban on removing him from ballots, individual states being left to decide, removal from all ballots, or some other other weird scenario. Nothing is straightforward with that man and I don’t expect this situation to turn out any different.
Based on what I read from discussions of the amendment passing at the time in the documents above, it sounds odd but it might be the case. Again IANAL, but they added a clause in the amendment that specifically says something to the effect of congress can make laws to enforce this. The idea being if they didn’t have that clause the power would be assumed to automatically devolve to the states, because of the part of the constitution that says any powers not delegated specifically to the federal government go to state governments. So basically there’s at least one interpretation here where unless congress makes a specific law enforcing the provision, it would be up to specific states to implement as they saw fit. I think it’s most likely the supreme court weasels out of this whole thing somehow still, but there might be a chance something like that could happen.
It could end up with SCOTUS deciding states have the full right to decide what candidates they allow (has historical backing) but they would probably also need to argue that invalidation as a candidate in a minority of states doesn’t invalidate their power as an elected president, or else it gets very very complicated fast.
Congress can vote to forgive him, so there’s a path to him legally becoming president against (although obviously they shouldn’t)
Congress can barely vote to keep the lights on. I’d get out the popcorn for that one.
Jefferson Davis and Robert E Lee were some of the few that were barred from holding office until like, the 70’s, when it was reversed posthumously. As with all things Trump, entertaining the question to begin with is pretty fucking stupid.
The supreme Court reversed saying as much, however even with all Democrat judges the decision was 4-3. Dissenting judges were concerned about the lack of due process, basically Trump hasn’t been convicted. This is despite the fact that Trump’s legal representation did defend against the plaintiffs claims.
None of the confederates were tried as well so the due process concerns would be a change in the usage of the statute. All you had to do was prove somebody was a confederate and the statute would apply.
Likely the supreme court will say its like a sparkling coup because it doesn’t come from the Insurrection region of france and they will bend over backwards for Their Guy ™
Wallace’s decision was brilliant legal maneuvering. Having found Trump factually guilty of insurrection, higher courts cannot re-adjudicate or dismiss that fact. It is now written in stone.
Given that this case was going to be appealed, no matter what, her decision basically dropped an anvil on Trump’s head. Now SCOTUS cannot disregard the fact that Trump engaged in insurrection. They’re stuck with that, that’s how our law works. Bet Trump’s defense is pissed off.
Only way out now is some serious legal acrobatics to say that 14th does not apply to POTUS. LOL, he’s fucked.
And remember, this court is conservative, not partisan. These judges owe neither the GOP nor Trump a damned thing. I’d bet you a crisp $20 bill that, like the GOP leadership, every one of them loathes the man. And unlike the GOP leadership, they no longer have to worry about votes.
They’ve already declined to hear one Trump case (maybe two?), thereby kicking his loss back to the lower court. Where, ya know, he already lost. They also told Alabama to go fuck themselves on their redistricting shenanigans.
tl;dr: Wallace ruled this way on purpose to fuck Trump.
Everything you say would also be the case if she hadn’t come up with the bullshit about not applying to the presidency. That was simply about keeping the maga crosshairs off of her.
Clarence Thomas seems to like Trump just fine; he and his wife were being very shady after the 2020 election.
The idea that this court is “not partisan” is frankly one of the most naïve things I’ve heard in a long time.
Now SCOTUS cannot disregard the fact that Trump engaged in insurrection.
They gonna tho.
Literally, this scotus makes up its own facts all the time to get to the outcome they want. Go look into the quiet prayer that football coach was doing (it wasn’t quiet).
They literally don’t give a shit anymore about any rule. Standing doesn’t matter, facts, anything. If they just think they need to stick their stupid fucking faces into something they just go with their major questions bullshit now.
Down with the god kings of the Supreme Court!
This is the corrupted court that overturned Roe.
what has confused me about people saying this is, well, what exactly stops the supreme court from overriding him being declared factually guilty of that? Im guessing theres some sort of law to the effect that decisions like that arent what higher courts are trying to answer, but the supreme court also has no higher court to appeal a ruling to, so if they just decided to declare that this finding was incorrect anyway, what would happen?
There’s nothing stopping them but they are expected to consider precedent which that decision sets.
That’s not how precedent works. Higher courts set precedent that lower courts must follow, not vice versa. For instance, the SC could introduce a very narrow definition of (participating in) an insurrection. If they want to rule in Trump’s favor, they will find an excuse (and mangle the law in the process).
Yeah, they are pretty GD partisan. By virtue of being conservative.
This is not a smart take. It’s basically conspiracy thinking.
Otherwise, the Supreme Court is clearly partisan, because Alito and Thomas unashamedly contort into any position needed to face the MAGA base, and Gorsuch, Kavanaugh, and Coney Barrett will typically tend to do so in any issue involving civil rights or business interests.
The GOP is the body that executes the will of whatever conservatism is at any moment; they are inseparable at the executional level. The doctrinal vehicle the GOP uses to get where it’s going is originalism, but the great thing about justices playing professional-amateur historians is that they can cherry-pick history to suit party-doctrinal needs.
The 14th is a reconstruction amendment btw, it wasn’t drafted or ratified by the founders.
Great point. I don’t know why I said founders, I meant framers, but I’m leaving it so your correction makes sense.
they founded the 14th amendment
I think what’s important here is that the judge ruled that the orange cheeto comitted insurrection. I hope the supreme court does not strike down this part. If they don’t, then they may proceed with judging the case based solely on that.
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the president is an office inhabited by a person for four years at most twice.
that was the intent.
never again “I am the State.”
That sounds a lot like Canadian (and also British) constitutional theory. The King is powerless himself. He just wears the crown, the Crown has all the power. The King wears the crown, and parliament controls it.
This is going to backfire on them royally. A left-wing person is going to be convicted of trying to overthrow the government, but then be able to run for president if that becomes the precedent. Be careful what you wish for, conservatives.
They’re going to find some way to let him run. They’ll overturn the trial judge in it being insurrection, they’ll say the amendment needs legislation to back it up, they’ll say say the word “the” doesn’t really mean “the” like it did in 1492 or some such nonsense. It’ll be 5-4 or 6-3, because the fascist right has the judiciary captured.
America entered the legal phase of fascism during Trumps presidency, and Biden and the democrats weren’t able to correct it during this last best chance to do so. In my humble, ignorant, foreign opinion, this is it, this will be the next step in the long coming codification of fascist rule in America.
Good luck, hope I’m wrong.
‘or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States’
well see, the thing is, the presidency is both civil and military… it doesn’t say “and/or” so clearly it’s an exclusive ‘or’ (aka xor) and exempt…
- the super ream court( ╯︵╰)
Garland tried his best to bury it but the J6 Committee forced his hand.
Honestly the J6 Committee is one of the very few recent examples of thy government actually functioning.
I think Trump is useful to the conservative movement either way, but it’s probably better for them if he’s a martyr.
The sad reality is it all comes down to whether their owners want Trump or someone they can control better.
Nope, America entered the fascist era with Obama. No, no, I’m still talking about the GOP!!
Fuckers shut down the government TWICE just because they didn’t like a black man as a president. And do you remember this one time when Obama was giving a speech and some Republican idiot shouted “you lie!”?
Those were omens for things to come.
My only hope is that, somehow, they have verifiable already ruled against Trump before in other cases and filings.
And also that maybe ruling for him with Biden still in office now would set precedent to potentially backfire on Republicans somehow.
Both are stretches.
So, how do you think the Court will justify keeping Trump on the ballot?
- What Trump did doesn’t qualify as insurrection.
- Trump hasn’t been convicted of insurrection.
- The insurrectionist ban is only for people who participated in the civil war
- The ban doesn’t apply because presidents aren’t officers
- The ban doesn’t apply because presidents swear to protect the constitution, not to support it
- Section 3 can’t be enforced without congress passing legislation to enforce it.
- It’s a political question so courts can’t touch it.
- Trump being impeached but acquitted after the insurrection means he can’t be punished for it due to double jeopardy (I hate that this is an actual argument being made… and that it’s not even close to the stupidest one to come from team Trump)
Trump hasn’t been convicted of insurrection.
I keep seeing this one… Am I missing something, or didn’t Colorado convict him of insurrection as part of their case? I thought that was the whole point.
But maybe I’m just trying to rationalize a group of people not acting rationally.
to me this is where it gets interesting. that the constitution left it to the states to ‘remove the burden’ of being labeled an insurrectionist to congress implies maybe they also decide who is an insurrectionist … ie, maybe it only takes one state court to declare it, but congress to remove it?
in other words, the SC could say, ‘colorados ruling stands becasue they have that right, if you dont like it speak to the congress who can remove the burden’
No, Colorado’s ruling applies solely to Colorado. They didn’t convict him personally of anything, they just said his actions allow them to keep him off the ballot under the 14th Amendment. If the Supreme Court decides that Colorado misinterpreted the 14th, they could overturn their decision, but the CO decision doesn’t inherently classify Trump as an insurrectionist in other states.
It’s a matter of legal jargon. When people say “convicted” they mean has there been a criminal trial in which trump was found guilty of insurrection.
This hasn’t happened. But the Colorado supreme court, a court that routinely makes decisions about criminal cases, has decided he committed insurrection.
The convicted thing is just an excuse to let him off.
The insurrectionist ban is only for people who participated in the civil war
My guess is this one or close to it. It’s going to be an originalist interpretation of something like the definition of “insurrectionist” or “armed” and include a phrase like “the founding fathers didn’t envision…”. The reasoning might be some bad esoteric case law from the 1800’s that defines insurrectionists as carrying literal muskets and pitchforks therefore Trump is not one.
That and they may just stall for time until after the election and claim they couldn’t interrupt the democratic process term limits. Either way, Trump’s chosen judges are about to have their decisive moment.
My hope is that they just ban him because he no longer has leverage after appointing them, but I am not sure if that would be an even worse indictment of their suitability as Supreme Court judges…
It would be possibly the most egregious thing SCOTUS has done (and they’ve done some shit) if they use this argument. We have the records of the adoption of the 14th, its original wording specified only members of the Confederacy were barred, but they explicitly changed it to cover any act of insurrection. We also know that they considered the language of “any officer” to cover the presidency because someone asked that question, and it’s in the minutes.
Egregious has been escalating at the Supreme Court, in my opinion they’ve been testing the waters to see what the American public will tolerate.
- Roe v Wade overturn showed that Americans will tolerate the removal of rights for half the population
- the fake web designer who pretended to refuse service to LGBT+ decision showed they are willing to engage with dishonest hypothetical situations and the people will tolerate it
- the affirmative action decision showed that when marginalised communities are further institutionally marginalised, there will be little backlash
They’ve been steadily entrenching conservative power. Sotomayor has been warning everyone for years, but when one of the sitting judges publicly says that a decision is “unjustified exercise of power,” and the President says the court isn’t making good decisions, shit is not going well and it doesn’t give me much hope.
I do think that banning him is the correct legal outcome.
However, while I think banning him is better for the country than any scenario in which he wins the election (or tries to dispute/steal it again), I think the best possible scenario in the long term would be for Trump to stay in the race, only to lose in a landslide and drag the entire Republican party down with him. The more the donors and power brokers see MAGA losing, the more they will want to shift the party away from the lunatic fringe and back to more mainstream, traditional candidates.
And as a bonus, if the Court doesn’t neuter section 3, I’m sure we’ll see some bullshit challenges filed against Democrats, and at least in a few jurisdictions I’m sure they may even be able to score a token victory.
DeSantis would sink the Republicans much more than Trump. People just hate the guy.
If you’re looking at this purely politically, I think Haley is the most dangerous republican in terms of being able to beat Trump.
I think the most sound legal reasoning would be to say he hasn’t actually been convicted of any charge that constitutes “insurrection”. Conviction is how the government asserts and proves that something happened, and to skip this step opens our legal system for a whole lot of abuse. They’re going to say that, if and when he is convicted, then he can be barred, but not before.
The people the this amendment was specifically targeting weren’t convicted of anything.
If I’m not mistaken they were even blanket pardoned
This is true but if there’s any possibility that SCOTUS rules in trump’s favor that will be the only semi logical way they could do it.
When they release their final decision, it is just gonna be a picture of Clarence Thomas’ anus.
I don’t think they can argue #1, because a lower court found that he had done insurrection, and my understanding is that they cannot overrule that finding. #2 won’t stand because it never required conviction historically.
I really don’t know how they’re going to justify it, but I’m sure they’ll find a way. Maybe it’s on your list.
Edit: I have consulted a legal expert, and they said that the supreme Court can overrule “facts” determined in other courts, but it is generally only for egregious things and is generally frowned upon.
Why could they not overrule that finding? That’s literally what appeals to higher courts are for.
It’s their job to interpret the law and to determine if the law was applied correctly. They will not however dispute those findings. You will see, they will not debate that Trump is an insurrectionist.
But what about the most likely one?
“LaLaLa the law doesn’t matter were unaccountable to anyone for any reason because you couldn’t get 2/3rds of the house to agree that puppies are cute or shit stinks.”
Section 3 says he can’t hold office, doesn’t say he can’t get elected to it
- Every individual state has the right to determine who can run for president in their state (this would be a complete clusterfuck but very funny to watch if you’re not American).
- Separation of powers. This is an ambitious growth in the courts powers in determining who can be in the executive branch. They need a motion from the legislature to confirm that they have this ability.
I honestly believe that conservatives on the supreme court are going to look for a way not to rule on it. The legal case for insurrection is straightforward, and they’re going to want to just make it someone else’s problem.
Trump being impeached but acquitted after the insurrection means he can’t be punished for it due to double jeopardy
So are they suggesting that to also get him out of Jack Smith’s Jan 6 case?
No, they’re just suggesting it so that if (when) a justice sides with him, they can say that’s why. Nobody, not even the lawyers making the argument, believe that being acquitted during impeachment proceedings magically erases criminal liability.
that last part: huh, an unexpected measure of reasonability.
That’s such a ridiculous argument anyway since they’re so quick to point out that impeachment is a political process and not a “legal” or judicial one.
Oh I know it’s absolutely ridiculous, but that doesn’t mean they wouldn’t try to use it like that anyway, unsuccessfully.
Well, we hope unsuccessfully anyway.
stares into the distance
But that district court judge, Sarah Wallace, ultimately ruled that Trump could remain on the ballot because she said it was not clear that the drafters or ratifiers of the 14th Amendment intended to cover the presidency in the insurrection clause.
fuck outta here with this bullshit
If you participate in insurrection, you are not allowed to hold any office in the United States… except the highest apparently.
Clearly what they intended. /s
It was such a ridiculous ruling. We even have the literal discussions from congress when it passed. Someone asked what about president, and another senator replied hey look we said all offices, how much more clear could it be.
From the congressional record at that time:
“Why did you omit to exclude them?” asked Maryland Democratic Sen. Reverdy Johnson. [in reference to president and vice president]
Maine’s Lot Morrill jumped in to clarify.
“Let me call the Senator’s attention to the words ‘or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States,’” Morrill said, ending the discussion on that point.
Actually, you totally can. It’s just if you’ve sworn an oath to defend the Constitution and then used the benefits of the position that required that commitment to try to overthrow the government…Then you are not allowed. Any of those J6 morons that hadn’t sworn such an oath are still allowed to hold office.
Are you just learning this piece of old news? Really?
This is why Trump won. Complacency.
I wonder what our overly conservative, and therefore, illegitimate, “supreme” court will decide?
My guess is that they’ll rule he doesn’t qualify for being kicked off the ballot due to the 14th Amendment, but then they’ll “balance” that ruling out by ruling against Trump in his “Presidents are criminally immune no matter what they do” case. As if they’d ever rule in favor of that theory with a Democrat in the White House.
If presidents are criminally immune, then Biden can be president forever. And he could order the execution of any supreme Court justice. They need to be careful in the ruling.
Biden rolling into the SC chambers with a Glock actually makes voting for him more palatable for me.
I worry about this scenario:
The right wing justices on the court owe Trump nothing, and can look forward to using their lifetime positions to continue to ruin the country for decades. He was just a useful tool for getting them onto the court. They want Trump to stop bugging them and let them get on with it.
The three Trump justices and Thomas could recuse themselves, citing some previously hidden sense of ethics (and Habba specifically asking them for a quid pro quo).
Then a majority of the remainder would then remove Trump from the ballot.
This achieves 3 things:
- Republicans would be rid of Trump, because he’s a liability to their long term success. They could nominate Haley or whatever for this cycle.
- Republicans could shriek (and fundraise) endlessly off of “partisan librul socialist Democrat justices” removing Trump and why they need even MORE right wing justices.
- Trump’s stochastic MAGA terrorists would focus all their fury and rage on non-rightwing justices (rather than deciding that one of their own was a “RINO” and targeting them).
The only problem with their scenario (for the Republicans and those that control them) is that Trump would freak out and might tell all his followers to storm the Supreme Court anyway.
≥storm the Supreme Court anyway.
I wonder how that would go down? Would there be someone trying to gum up the response like last time?
Lemme guess. It’s gonna take 18 months?
I don’t know whether to be excited or worried.
Worried is a safe bet
what do you mean, clearly the US judicial system is fair and impartial /s
unfortunately, yeah.
Worried. Definitely
They aren’t hearing the case until 2/8 but the deadline for ballot finalization is 1/5, today.
So, regardless of how they rule, Trump will be on the ballot for the 3/5 Republican primary.
And if they rule against him, any votes that were cast will be ineligible and won’t be counted. The same as if I had written in someone who was born outside the US, or was under 35 years old. My write-in vote would simply be discarded, because it isn’t for a valid candidate.
Yes. But, should they rule against trump there’s no reason that Colorado’s Secretary of State has to count any votes he gets.
They wouldn’t take it up if they were going to rule against him.
Can’t we all chip in a bribe Clarence Thomas? Apparently it’s totally legal and has zero repercussions.
We won’t bribe him because calling it a bribe is illegal. We shall gift him.
Can we start a go fund me??
Title: Clarence needs a vacation and we need democracy send your speech in the form of crisp benjies.
He could buy his own yacht, private jet and tropical island and wouldn’t need to be paid off by billionaires…. problem solved you’re welcome.
I’m in.
On what grounds would they even look at this case? There is no federally constituted right to be on ballots to begin with.
Because they wanna. They don’t care about standing anymore.
And there’s no need for them to address most of it because it already comes with a remedy for the accused, appeal to congress who can vote on forgiving them.
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They can rule on the interpretation of the law i believe.
It’s a little late for that approach, since Judge Sarah Wallace already attempted to say the 38th congress didn’t intend for the law to apply to the President but it was overturned in appeals court when documents proved they did actually discuss exactly that topic on the day and made no exclusions. So, they have no grounds to even review this case.
I’m sure the most accomplished legal minds in the country will judge this fairly, without bias, and entirely on the merits of the case itself
“We the SCOTUS rule that Trump gets 3 more terms, and Joe Biden goes to jail because he’s a poopy head.” - Clarence Thomas probably
They better block him from running
They won’t. It’s up to us, the voters, to save the Republic.
The voters will have nothing to do with it. If he loses, it was stolen.
Edit: He will say it was stolen. There’s no losing for this guy, so pretending like the vote will matter is naive.
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Someone’s getting a new RV!
Fkn lol
The Supreme Court that is comprised mostly of conservatives half of which he put there? I’m sure it’ll be a fair ruling…
