> Greta Thunberg > @GretaThunberg
[https://x.com/GretaThunberg/status/1852331823428247927] > > #UsaElection
#USA2024 #StopArminglsrael #FreePalestine #ClimateJusticeNow > > This year we
have seen many defining elections all over the world. On November 5th, It is
time for one of the most powerful countries in the world — the USA — to go to
the polls. It is probably Impossible to overestimate the consequences this
specific election will have for the world and for the future of humanity. > >
There is no doubt that one of the candidates — Trump — is way more dangerous
than the other. But no matter if Trump or Harris wins, the USA — a country built
on stolen land and genocide on indigenous people -will soll be an imperialist
hyper-capitalist world power that will ultimately continue to lead the world
further into a racist, unequal world with an ever increasingly escalating
climate- and environmental emergency. > > With this in mind, my main message to
Americans is to remember that you cannot only settle for the least worst option.
Democracy is not only every four years on election day, but also every hour of
every day in between. You cannot think you have done “enough’ only by voting,
especially when both those candidates have blood on their hands. Lets not forget
that the genocide in Palestine is happening under the Biden and Harris
administration, with American money and complicity. It is not in any way
'feminist.” “progressive” or “humanitarian” to bomb innocent children and
civilians — it is the opposite, even It it is a woman in charge. And this is of
course one example among many of American imperialism. I cannot for my life
understand how some can even pretend to talk about humanitarian values, without
even questioning their own role In further deepening global oppression and
massacres of entire countries. > > So, Americans, you must do everything in your
power to call out this extreme hypocrisy and the catastrophic consequences
American Imperialism has on a global scale. Be uncomfortable, fill the streets,
block, organise, boycott, occupy, explicitly call out those in power whose
actions and Inaction lead to death and destruction. Join and support those who
are resisting and leading the change. Nothing less will ever be acceptable.
Mod of [email protected] posts a great Greta Thunberg quote, but then tries to use it to justify not voting in the upcoming US election
Multiple people point out that’s very clearly not what she meant
Removed by modRemoved by modRemoved by modRemoved by mod
Using your mod powers to decide who is allowed and not allowed to speak is not very anarchist of you, @[email protected]
Going on an anarchist community to spew anti-anarchism is a bannable offence. Pound sand asshole.And then going on an anarchist Lemmy instance to complain, classic.
Sir/Madam, you started a conversation quite−closely-linked to the election in an anarchist community in the first place. Saying “it’s much better to vote for this candidate instead” is not the same as supporting the election; I don’t see why lesser-evilism is bannable at all. I’m a beginner anarchist myself and there’s nothing I found about working on other things/lesser evils when certain things aren’t feasible.
Lesser evilism is bannable because it’s still supporting evil. If you support the lesser evil, you’re supposed to be ashamed at your choice, not provide ideological cover for evil. Choosing to provide ideological cover for evil is a bannable offence.
Lesser evilism is bannable because it’s still supporting evil.
I’m not going to weigh in on the original bans (contrary to the purpose of this community, I know). However, this is a pretty distinct third-partyist talking point. The “vote swapping programs” thing from your comment further downthread is also straight out of the third-party playbook.
Don’t you feel kind of weird to be pushing the third-party stuff as aggressively as you are, as an anarchist? Like, I’m not big on anarcho-purity tests, but you do understand that all our arguments against the effectiveness of electoralism apply just as much against supporting third parties, if not more so, right?
It seems like maybe Lemmy’s cadre of third party cranks and tankies may have warped your perspective a bit. Personally, I think we should be trying to avoid antagonizing the liberals unless it’s going to result in some sort of concrete benefit. They’re our largest pool of potential recruits, and even short of that they’re amenable to a number of our ideas. Catch more flies with honey etc etc.
In my country’s present institution, you have to either support evil or be filthy rich to live. Revolutions don’t happen spontaneously; they build in the back corner while evil is prospering before a great ambush. As a non-white anarchist, Trump will quite possibly kill our movement if he wins. Thus, I unfortunately indulge in activities that will help us in the long run. In the dark, we help build strength. In the light, you’ll help arrest the momentum.
It’s an understandable choice. It’s a choice stemming from lack of agency and power. Choosing to defend the lesser evil and justify the evil is a different. It is a more powerful, wholly conscious choice. THAT is itself evil. You should be unhappy and outraged that you have both choice but to choose evil, to choose genocide. Yet these people, they are not. Rather, they want to wholly support the program of Harris, wilfully ignoring or downplaying that this program is evil and genocidal. That is providing ideological cover for genocide, and that is never justified.
I don’t think you really are willing to understand that most people are viewing that election as a hostage situation. I’m Canadian. It’s plain as day. Forced participation is not consent, and you should know that!
You’re correct! But defending Harris and her program is a different choice. You can vote, but you don’t need to CHOOSE to defend Harris, you don’t need to CHOOSE to defend her program, you don’t need to CHOOSE to provide ideological cover for genocide. Vote if you want, but defending Harris is a different choice from voting. And doing this in an anarchist space? Why in our space? Can’t you do that in the hundreds of other Lemmy communities? Don’t use our space to soapbox. Do the ideological cover for genocide elsewhere, thank you very much.
Isn’t “we lack agency” the exact argument you removed? Casting others in either black or white is unnecessarily flaming and often used by power-grabbers to divide the electorate and drum up perfervid support. Nobody’s wholly supporting Harris or supporting her stance on the war here. I saw the thread before it was removed.
Something Awful forums apparently have some sort of sitewide account ban for strawmanning, saying that someone said something which clearly isn’t what they said, so you can get upset at them about the thing they didn’t say. The longer I stay on Lemmy, the more I think that kind of rule is a great idea.
No it wasn’t. They were justifying and defending Harris and defending voting for Harris. Anti-anarchists don’t get to use anarchist spaces to push anti-anarchist talking points. They have literally almost every other Lemmy instance to push their voting agenda, why should they use ours?
I think it would be fun if this community had a rule that if the mod comes to the comments to double down, they are banned and their comment is deleted.
I don’t think such a rule is necessary. I think the whole conversation we had without you played out fine, and your opinion was already obvious without you needing to weigh in again and start cursing at me. But that rule would be fun.
Providing ideological cover for genocide and promoting anti-anarchism is worth more than what you got, which is just a slap on the wrist. But please, tell me why anarchists should tolerate anti-anarchism, liberalism, and ideological cover for genocide in their space. I’m sure it’s enlightening.
Providing ideological cover for genocide and promoting anti-anarchism is worth more than what you got, which is just a slap on the wrist.
Sorry, what did you say? Can you tell me about what type of punishment I should receive?
But please, tell me why anarchists should tolerate anti-anarchism, liberalism, and ideological cover for genocide in their space. I’m sure it’s enlightening.
Because talking with people who don’t agree with you is a valuable thing to do.
If I’m wrong, and you take some time to talk with me, maybe I’ll absorb what you are saying, and take it on as a good idea. Probably not the first time, but it does happen over time. It’s good to be able to talk with other humans. If as soon as I’m wrong, you ban me, then I’ll never have that opportunity, and I’ll just go on being wrong and getting banned from places, indefinitely.
If you’re wrong, or what you’re saying is applicable sometimes but it’s not a good idea in some other situations, letting me say what I’ve got to say might show you a new perspective. Or, even if you’re completely set in your way, it’s still valuable for the people watching the conversation to be able to see both sides expressed, and decide for themselves.
I think it’s universally agreed that the places on Reddit and Lemmy that aggressively remove “the wrong viewpoint” are laughingstocks. A lot of the time, they’re doing that because they don’t have a good answer for questions people are asking or points they’re making. You’ve chosen to make [email protected] into one of them, in this one particular instance. Well done.
You’ve asked over and over why I am supporting genocide. I explained over and over that what I’m saying is an attempt to prevent genocide, and calmly explained how. That pattern eventually starts to sink in, for people watching the conversation, even if it never does for you, and impacts what they take away from the conversation. I think it would be better for you to reassess your way of approaching conversation with people who don’t agree with you, but you do you.
See how good this is? We don’t agree on things, and we’re talking to each other. It’s normal, it’s healthy. Like I said, if you’re insistent on making “your” community into one where that can’t happen, that’s on you, but I think it’s a bad idea.
Anarchism doesn’t mean free speech for anti-anarchists. Simple as. We welcome debate and dissent in our ranks, but don’t lay down welcome mats for those who hate us and our program. Please tell me why you should feel entitled to soapbox in our space when literally almost every other Lemmy is devoted to the Harris cause? Soapbox somewhere else. I was just taking out the trash.
Power tripping modsism doesn’t mean free speech for power tripping mods. We welcome debate and dissent in our ranks, but don’t lay down welcome mats for those- You know what? My heart’s just not in it. I just don’t care.
I never defended Kamala Harris, I just agreed with Greta Thunberg that Trump is so bad that it’s an emergency. You were the one that brought the election and talking about the Democrats into an anarchist space, and then threw a fit when someone continued the conversation you started about the election, and quoted your Greta Thunberg post back at you. I clearly don’t hate anarchists, I read some of them after talking to people in this non-censored thread, and I had some thoughts but overall I think it’s gold. A good way of enabling an anarchist lifestyle sounds really good to me.
You are the one soapboxing in the anarchist space about the election. You are the one who’s been talking nonstop about Kamala Harris and the election for highly suspicious reasons.
I think I’ve said as much on this now as I want to say. I think all you’ve done by coming and doubling down so hard is to convince people a little more firmly of what the consensus already was before you stopped by.
Why are you so entitled to soapbox your anti-anarchism, liberalism, electoralism, and ideological cover for genocide in our space when you can shit the floor in literally almost every other Lemmy? Go to those other communities; they’ll welcome you. No, you’re not entitled to it. Go pound sand.
Hey, what punishment do you think I should have received instead of the slap on the wrist?
Did you ask Kropotkin about it? I feel like he might have had some kind of punishment schedule laid out for what to do when people do things that might harm the movement, but you seem better-educated on all this than I am, so you would know better. Tell me.
Do you have any experience organizing? Because in my experience, booting out liberals from shitting in our physical spaces is a justified thing to do. Why not digital? Are they silenced? They still have literally almost every other Lemmy to spout their electoralist evilism. They are not censored or silenced from the public, just removed from anarchist spaces.
In my experience, organizing anything along with the type of person who starts accusing people of “evilism” and insists on removing them from the group, when they say something like “your plan might kill a lot of people, so I want to do this other plan instead,” is a ballache and a half and often doesn’t succeed.
I’m still waiting to hear what punishment you think I should have received instead of the slap on the wrist. I tried to quit the conversation, but you got me hooked back in again.
What’s my plan? To remind people what they’re voting for? To remind people voting isn’t enough? That plan? You’re the one who has been belittling me in the past several days over basic principled positions on opposition to genocide. You willfully and freely provide ideological cover for Harris. You simply are not entitled to do that in anarchist spaces. That’s literally all there is.
Also, what? Aren’t you an anarchist who’s opposed to the tanks? Anarchists won’t tolerant tankies right? Why should we tolerant liberal tanks, the liberal equivalent of tankies? And as god is my witness, they do indeed have tanks.
Oh cute, the Judas of anarchists wants to downvote because I’m calling them out.
Remember friends and fellow lone wolf anarchists, this person is an example of why working together can get you sold out and on death row. The summer anarchist will sell you out to save their own skin.
There’s no such thing as “lone wolf anarchists” anymore than there’s “anarcho”-capitalists. Anarchism is at it’s core a socialist movement. And there’s no “social” without other humans.
Going on an anarchist community to spew anti-anarchism is a bannable offence. Pound sand asshole.And then going on an anarchist Lemmy instance to complain, classic.
Sir/Madam, you started a conversation quite−closely-linked to the election in an anarchist community in the first place. Saying “it’s much better to vote for this candidate instead” is not the same as supporting the election; I don’t see why lesser-evilism is bannable at all. I’m a beginner anarchist myself and there’s nothing I found about working on other things/lesser evils when certain things aren’t feasible.
Lesser evilism is bannable because it’s still supporting evil. If you support the lesser evil, you’re supposed to be ashamed at your choice, not provide ideological cover for evil. Choosing to provide ideological cover for evil is a bannable offence.
I’m not going to weigh in on the original bans (contrary to the purpose of this community, I know). However, this is a pretty distinct third-partyist talking point. The “vote swapping programs” thing from your comment further downthread is also straight out of the third-party playbook.
Don’t you feel kind of weird to be pushing the third-party stuff as aggressively as you are, as an anarchist? Like, I’m not big on anarcho-purity tests, but you do understand that all our arguments against the effectiveness of electoralism apply just as much against supporting third parties, if not more so, right?
It seems like maybe Lemmy’s cadre of third party cranks and tankies may have warped your perspective a bit. Personally, I think we should be trying to avoid antagonizing the liberals unless it’s going to result in some sort of concrete benefit. They’re our largest pool of potential recruits, and even short of that they’re amenable to a number of our ideas. Catch more flies with honey etc etc.
This ^^^^
In my country’s present institution, you have to either support evil or be filthy rich to live. Revolutions don’t happen spontaneously; they build in the back corner while evil is prospering before a great ambush. As a non-white anarchist, Trump will quite possibly kill our movement if he wins. Thus, I unfortunately indulge in activities that will help us in the long run. In the dark, we help build strength. In the light, you’ll help arrest the momentum.
But do you have to justify evil? Do you have to defend evil? To justify and defend is a different choice than choosing to shitty option.
I’m confused. Do you now think choosing the shitty option is justifiable or not?
It’s an understandable choice. It’s a choice stemming from lack of agency and power. Choosing to defend the lesser evil and justify the evil is a different. It is a more powerful, wholly conscious choice. THAT is itself evil. You should be unhappy and outraged that you have both choice but to choose evil, to choose genocide. Yet these people, they are not. Rather, they want to wholly support the program of Harris, wilfully ignoring or downplaying that this program is evil and genocidal. That is providing ideological cover for genocide, and that is never justified.
I don’t think you really are willing to understand that most people are viewing that election as a hostage situation. I’m Canadian. It’s plain as day. Forced participation is not consent, and you should know that!
You’re correct! But defending Harris and her program is a different choice. You can vote, but you don’t need to CHOOSE to defend Harris, you don’t need to CHOOSE to defend her program, you don’t need to CHOOSE to provide ideological cover for genocide. Vote if you want, but defending Harris is a different choice from voting. And doing this in an anarchist space? Why in our space? Can’t you do that in the hundreds of other Lemmy communities? Don’t use our space to soapbox. Do the ideological cover for genocide elsewhere, thank you very much.
Isn’t “we lack agency” the exact argument you removed? Casting others in either black or white is unnecessarily flaming and often used by power-grabbers to divide the electorate and drum up perfervid support. Nobody’s wholly supporting Harris or supporting her stance on the war here. I saw the thread before it was removed.
Something Awful forums apparently have some sort of sitewide account ban for strawmanning, saying that someone said something which clearly isn’t what they said, so you can get upset at them about the thing they didn’t say. The longer I stay on Lemmy, the more I think that kind of rule is a great idea.
No it wasn’t. They were justifying and defending Harris and defending voting for Harris. Anti-anarchists don’t get to use anarchist spaces to push anti-anarchist talking points. They have literally almost every other Lemmy instance to push their voting agenda, why should they use ours?
I think it would be fun if this community had a rule that if the mod comes to the comments to double down, they are banned and their comment is deleted.
I don’t think such a rule is necessary. I think the whole conversation we had without you played out fine, and your opinion was already obvious without you needing to weigh in again and start cursing at me. But that rule would be fun.
Providing ideological cover for genocide and promoting anti-anarchism is worth more than what you got, which is just a slap on the wrist. But please, tell me why anarchists should tolerate anti-anarchism, liberalism, and ideological cover for genocide in their space. I’m sure it’s enlightening.
Sorry, what did you say? Can you tell me about what type of punishment I should receive?
Because talking with people who don’t agree with you is a valuable thing to do.
If I’m wrong, and you take some time to talk with me, maybe I’ll absorb what you are saying, and take it on as a good idea. Probably not the first time, but it does happen over time. It’s good to be able to talk with other humans. If as soon as I’m wrong, you ban me, then I’ll never have that opportunity, and I’ll just go on being wrong and getting banned from places, indefinitely.
If you’re wrong, or what you’re saying is applicable sometimes but it’s not a good idea in some other situations, letting me say what I’ve got to say might show you a new perspective. Or, even if you’re completely set in your way, it’s still valuable for the people watching the conversation to be able to see both sides expressed, and decide for themselves.
I think it’s universally agreed that the places on Reddit and Lemmy that aggressively remove “the wrong viewpoint” are laughingstocks. A lot of the time, they’re doing that because they don’t have a good answer for questions people are asking or points they’re making. You’ve chosen to make [email protected] into one of them, in this one particular instance. Well done.
You’ve asked over and over why I am supporting genocide. I explained over and over that what I’m saying is an attempt to prevent genocide, and calmly explained how. That pattern eventually starts to sink in, for people watching the conversation, even if it never does for you, and impacts what they take away from the conversation. I think it would be better for you to reassess your way of approaching conversation with people who don’t agree with you, but you do you.
See how good this is? We don’t agree on things, and we’re talking to each other. It’s normal, it’s healthy. Like I said, if you’re insistent on making “your” community into one where that can’t happen, that’s on you, but I think it’s a bad idea.
Anarchism doesn’t mean free speech for anti-anarchists. Simple as. We welcome debate and dissent in our ranks, but don’t lay down welcome mats for those who hate us and our program. Please tell me why you should feel entitled to soapbox in our space when literally almost every other Lemmy is devoted to the Harris cause? Soapbox somewhere else. I was just taking out the trash.
I am curious, still. What punishment should I have received beyond the slap on the wrist?
Power tripping modsism doesn’t mean free speech for power tripping mods. We welcome debate and dissent in our ranks, but don’t lay down welcome mats for those- You know what? My heart’s just not in it. I just don’t care.
I never defended Kamala Harris, I just agreed with Greta Thunberg that Trump is so bad that it’s an emergency. You were the one that brought the election and talking about the Democrats into an anarchist space, and then threw a fit when someone continued the conversation you started about the election, and quoted your Greta Thunberg post back at you. I clearly don’t hate anarchists, I read some of them after talking to people in this non-censored thread, and I had some thoughts but overall I think it’s gold. A good way of enabling an anarchist lifestyle sounds really good to me.
You are the one soapboxing in the anarchist space about the election. You are the one who’s been talking nonstop about Kamala Harris and the election for highly suspicious reasons.
I think I’ve said as much on this now as I want to say. I think all you’ve done by coming and doubling down so hard is to convince people a little more firmly of what the consensus already was before you stopped by.
Why are you so entitled to soapbox your anti-anarchism, liberalism, electoralism, and ideological cover for genocide in our space when you can shit the floor in literally almost every other Lemmy? Go to those other communities; they’ll welcome you. No, you’re not entitled to it. Go pound sand.
Hey, what punishment do you think I should have received instead of the slap on the wrist?
Did you ask Kropotkin about it? I feel like he might have had some kind of punishment schedule laid out for what to do when people do things that might harm the movement, but you seem better-educated on all this than I am, so you would know better. Tell me.
This thread is something
Removed by mod
Do you have any experience organizing? Because in my experience, booting out liberals from shitting in our physical spaces is a justified thing to do. Why not digital? Are they silenced? They still have literally almost every other Lemmy to spout their electoralist evilism. They are not censored or silenced from the public, just removed from anarchist spaces.
In my experience, organizing anything along with the type of person who starts accusing people of “evilism” and insists on removing them from the group, when they say something like “your plan might kill a lot of people, so I want to do this other plan instead,” is a ballache and a half and often doesn’t succeed.
I’m still waiting to hear what punishment you think I should have received instead of the slap on the wrist. I tried to quit the conversation, but you got me hooked back in again.
What’s my plan? To remind people what they’re voting for? To remind people voting isn’t enough? That plan? You’re the one who has been belittling me in the past several days over basic principled positions on opposition to genocide. You willfully and freely provide ideological cover for Harris. You simply are not entitled to do that in anarchist spaces. That’s literally all there is.
Knowing people like you exist? No.
I didn’t want to end up in jail or worse because things started turning out a little bad.
Also irony.
“I’m an anarchist, but I ‘remove not silence’ the voices of those I don’t like”
Also, what? Aren’t you an anarchist who’s opposed to the tanks? Anarchists won’t tolerant tankies right? Why should we tolerant liberal tanks, the liberal equivalent of tankies? And as god is my witness, they do indeed have tanks.
So you have no experience with dealing with real shit then. Stay in your little bubble then.
Oh cute, the Judas of anarchists wants to downvote because I’m calling them out.
Remember friends and fellow lone wolf anarchists, this person is an example of why working together can get you sold out and on death row. The summer anarchist will sell you out to save their own skin.
There’s no such thing as “lone wolf anarchists” anymore than there’s “anarcho”-capitalists. Anarchism is at it’s core a socialist movement. And there’s no “social” without other humans.
Guess I’m living proof otherwise then but I’m glad we can have these disagreements
they are still free to speak, but that community is no longer going to give them a platform