and I can write a lot about what Turkey did in these parts for centuries, I mean we’re talking Medieval version of Holocaust level
I think that’s a bit of an exaggeration, even if you’re looking at the whole period of over five centuries of Ottoman rule, unless you include all of the casualties of wars…but wars go both ways. As i said, due to where i was born i heard a lot of these prejudices and historical grievances growing up, but if you actually try to take a more unbiased view of history you do see that Balkan nationalists love to blow what happened under the Ottoman empire in the medieval period out of proportion.
And i’m purposely excluding here the modern period because i do think that the Armenian genocide and the ethnic cleansing of Greeks from Anatolia are on a whole other level as far as crimes against humanity than what happened in the Middle Ages (and Turks were also ethnically cleansed from the Balkans during the modern period, that also deserves to be acknowledged). I’m not saying that horrible things didn’t happen in the Middle Ages - this was a feudal empire that waged wars and ruled over conquered peoples after all. I’m just not convinced by the extreme nationalist narratives with all these bitter grievances and hatred for Turks even to this day.
People like to cite things like the Janissary system as this unique evil, but it wasn’t all too different from what other cultures/empires have done throughout history, and in many cases it was voluntary and seen as an opportunity for upward mobility. Forced conversions also did not happen much, mainly for the reason that the Ottomans could extract higher taxes from non-muslims, and so there were voluntary conversions for political and economic reasons. Taxation could be harsh but it doesn’t amount to genocide. And of course in many instances (the level of direct control by the Porte differed; some provinces were ruled as direct Pashaliks, others were essentially autonomous and just paid tributes…) the Ottomans ruled with a significant degree of collaboration from the local elites, and those elites profited from being the middle men.
Vlad was proclaimed for a national hero in COMMUNIST Romania, Ceaușescu himself rehabilitated him, so I’m not surprised by socialists praising him along with everyone on the right and left of them.
I greatly admire what the socialist period in Romania achieved and i’m not one of those people who thinks Ceaușescu was a really bad socialist leader (i think the best word to describe him is mediocre…well meaning but not very impressive and always trying to emulate better, more charismatic socialist leaders) but i don’t agree with every decision taken during that period. And i think that some of the more extreme focus on nationalism and trying so hard to create a national mythology on, it has to be said, shaky historical ground was a bit cringe.
I have some personal experience with this historical (mis-)education, and so even now i’m occasionally surprised when i learn more about the history of the region and find out that certain things that were taught to me in school as a child about Romania’s history were not completely true, or only part of the story.
I understand why they did it, and i also understand why there was such a heavy focus in the Balkan countries after they gained their independence on all of the bad things that happened in the Ottoman period and teaching it in schools. It helps to create a national identity, especially as these were fairly new states that were feeling insecure about their relative lack of distinct national and cultural identity compared to their more well established neighbors, like the Turks, the Russians, the Hungarians, etc. They had to essentially create a national historical narrative to justify their existence as independent states, and it’s especially easy to unite people around narratives of victimhood, oppression, and a shared enemy.
You see this today in Ukrainian nationalism, albeit in a much more extreme form with much more blatant fabrications, myth-making and outright lies. But the phenomenon is at its core the same, which is why i am extremely skeptical and cautious when it comes to this sort of thing.
In the case of the Balkans (and i include Romania in this by the way, i know some people disagree but i think there are sufficient cultural similarities to justify this) always harping on about the Turks, i just don’t think it’s healthy or productive, and i think it fuels a lot of islamophobia and racism, and socialists don’t need to be playing a part in that.
Aight, we’ll first talk about stuff before 20th century, even if we exclude all the wars before Balkan was actually successfully conquered and ruled for 500 years, I’m gonna keep it short. Our leaders fought hard during Middle Ages, but later on some became vassals/slaves out of necessity.
I’m gonna keep it short, but they were doing this stuff en masse: burned entire villages and towns, burned churches executed civilians by impalement(they started it), burning on stakes and sawing, executed male population, raped and kidnapped women for harems, kidnapped little children and babies to turn them into child soldiers for their wars, those who didn’t want to give children were killed(entire families), people had to mutilate themselves to avoid slavery, genocide on population of former Yugoslavia, Greek genocide, Bulgaria, Romania etc. And this went for centuries over and over again, and we didn’t even mention Armenian genocide which along with Native American genocide partially inspired nazis. They definitely got what was coming to them after all of that just as nazis did in Eastern Europe after WW2 and I can see why Vlad is treated like that.
And just like some of the other colonial powers such as France or UK they still continued and still do similar shit TO THIS VERY DAY, nothing changed except the way they do it and leadership: some more war crimes during and after WW1, then multiple invasions of Cyprus, participation in war crimes in Korea, bombings of multiple countries in Middle East and Africa, bombing of Yugoslavia because of course they just can’t live without comiting war crimes in Balkans, supporting of terrorist organizations who traded with organs of killed civilians in Kosovo and Metohija, building an occupation base there, open genocide denial for decades, continuing to send random threats to Greece and other Balkan countries while supporting Albania who wants to snatch territory from every single neighbor, bombing of Libya, supporting terrorists, indirectly supporting ethnic cleansing in Armenia YET AGAIN by supporting Azarbaijan and most recently, in case you forgot: Syria. So yes, they stayed completely the same as they were before few hundred years just as France and UK did, same with USA, Canada etc. You cannot compare it with Ukraine as Russia didn’t do any genocides there and they’re just raging banderites today, better comparison would be Circassian genocide which was on scale of Armenian one and was committed by Russian Empire, yet they do not hold a grudge because Russia changed, Turkey didn’t. This is the stuff all Yugoslavia always agreed upon.
It doesn’t have anything to do with Islam, as Turkey itself constantly commits war crimes and antagonizes fellow Islamic countries, Turkey doesn’t represent Islam. It isn’t good to hate a single country 24/7, but when said country is constantly a threat to everyone around it even in modern times just as USA is to the entire planet, what do you expect? That would be the same if African countries stayed silent on France, Middle East stayed silent on Isn’t real or everyone stayed silent on USA.
I’m not well informed enough on the specific historical details of what happened in the Balkans in the Middle Ages to be able to judge how accurate all of that is and whether some of it is or isn’t exaggerated. I’ll leave that for others to comment on.
I am more well versed in the modern history of the region, and on that i have to say you are unfortunately right about the malign role Turkey has played and the atrocities that were committed, though frankly in my view they did most of that either as part of NATO (their involvement in Yugoslavia, Korea, etc.) or because the Western powers looked the other way and enabled/allowed them to do it (Cyprus), as they served an important role for the Anglo-Saxon imperialists in their geostrategic games first against the Russian Empire, then against the Soviet Union.
And of course Erdogan’s involvement in Syria and his constant hypocrisy in saying one thing but doing another on the issue of Palestine has also been nothing short of despicable.
That being said, i just can’t condone the kind of racism that usually comes along with the extreme anti-Turkish nationalism of the Balkans. It may not be about Islam for you, but most people who embrace these nationalist grudges don’t separate in that way, and they quickly turn it into a religion thing. I see this very often. Plus, i just don’t think that Turkey poses a threat to any of the Balkan states today, i think the whole mutual paranoia between the Turks and the Greeks over the Aegean is mostly just silly.
In the east with Armenia however…that’s a completely different story. I do think that Turkey through its support of Azerbaijan poses a significant danger to Armenia (it’s not so long ago that Nagorno Karabakh happened, when the West did absolutely nothing to denounce the Azeris for that), but i hope that their getting closer to BRICS as the whole western NATO block weakens and falls apart will calm things down there. Especially if we continue to have a strong Russian and Iranian regional influence to keep things in the Caucasus peaceful.
Considering the Armenian genocide which happened just last century, I can’t even begin to imagine parts that waren’t even documented in Middle Ages.
It’s not racism as Turkey isn’t really a race, just valid paranoia after centuries of this shit happening, while you can definitely have your average Greek, Romanian or Serb who spends 24/7 talking about Turkey and spamming Constantinople, impalement or Kebab memes because he has nothing better to do, general serious worries and dislike towards Turkey are valid since well, just look at what happened before 20 years in Balkans, with Turkey occupying parts of Kosovo and Metohija with bases and Cyprus, also bombing of Libya and of course, currently, Syria and Armenia, so the threat is constantly there. Greece definitely has to be on alert just in case considering what’s happening in every country that borders Turkey except Bulgaria, this shit is like being Mexican while Trump is president, not easy.
I think that’s a bit of an exaggeration, even if you’re looking at the whole period of over five centuries of Ottoman rule, unless you include all of the casualties of wars…but wars go both ways. As i said, due to where i was born i heard a lot of these prejudices and historical grievances growing up, but if you actually try to take a more unbiased view of history you do see that Balkan nationalists love to blow what happened under the Ottoman empire in the medieval period out of proportion.
And i’m purposely excluding here the modern period because i do think that the Armenian genocide and the ethnic cleansing of Greeks from Anatolia are on a whole other level as far as crimes against humanity than what happened in the Middle Ages (and Turks were also ethnically cleansed from the Balkans during the modern period, that also deserves to be acknowledged). I’m not saying that horrible things didn’t happen in the Middle Ages - this was a feudal empire that waged wars and ruled over conquered peoples after all. I’m just not convinced by the extreme nationalist narratives with all these bitter grievances and hatred for Turks even to this day.
People like to cite things like the Janissary system as this unique evil, but it wasn’t all too different from what other cultures/empires have done throughout history, and in many cases it was voluntary and seen as an opportunity for upward mobility. Forced conversions also did not happen much, mainly for the reason that the Ottomans could extract higher taxes from non-muslims, and so there were voluntary conversions for political and economic reasons. Taxation could be harsh but it doesn’t amount to genocide. And of course in many instances (the level of direct control by the Porte differed; some provinces were ruled as direct Pashaliks, others were essentially autonomous and just paid tributes…) the Ottomans ruled with a significant degree of collaboration from the local elites, and those elites profited from being the middle men.
I greatly admire what the socialist period in Romania achieved and i’m not one of those people who thinks Ceaușescu was a really bad socialist leader (i think the best word to describe him is mediocre…well meaning but not very impressive and always trying to emulate better, more charismatic socialist leaders) but i don’t agree with every decision taken during that period. And i think that some of the more extreme focus on nationalism and trying so hard to create a national mythology on, it has to be said, shaky historical ground was a bit cringe.
I have some personal experience with this historical (mis-)education, and so even now i’m occasionally surprised when i learn more about the history of the region and find out that certain things that were taught to me in school as a child about Romania’s history were not completely true, or only part of the story.
I understand why they did it, and i also understand why there was such a heavy focus in the Balkan countries after they gained their independence on all of the bad things that happened in the Ottoman period and teaching it in schools. It helps to create a national identity, especially as these were fairly new states that were feeling insecure about their relative lack of distinct national and cultural identity compared to their more well established neighbors, like the Turks, the Russians, the Hungarians, etc. They had to essentially create a national historical narrative to justify their existence as independent states, and it’s especially easy to unite people around narratives of victimhood, oppression, and a shared enemy.
You see this today in Ukrainian nationalism, albeit in a much more extreme form with much more blatant fabrications, myth-making and outright lies. But the phenomenon is at its core the same, which is why i am extremely skeptical and cautious when it comes to this sort of thing.
In the case of the Balkans (and i include Romania in this by the way, i know some people disagree but i think there are sufficient cultural similarities to justify this) always harping on about the Turks, i just don’t think it’s healthy or productive, and i think it fuels a lot of islamophobia and racism, and socialists don’t need to be playing a part in that.
Aight, we’ll first talk about stuff before 20th century, even if we exclude all the wars before Balkan was actually successfully conquered and ruled for 500 years, I’m gonna keep it short. Our leaders fought hard during Middle Ages, but later on some became vassals/slaves out of necessity.
I’m gonna keep it short, but they were doing this stuff en masse: burned entire villages and towns, burned churches executed civilians by impalement(they started it), burning on stakes and sawing, executed male population, raped and kidnapped women for harems, kidnapped little children and babies to turn them into child soldiers for their wars, those who didn’t want to give children were killed(entire families), people had to mutilate themselves to avoid slavery, genocide on population of former Yugoslavia, Greek genocide, Bulgaria, Romania etc. And this went for centuries over and over again, and we didn’t even mention Armenian genocide which along with Native American genocide partially inspired nazis. They definitely got what was coming to them after all of that just as nazis did in Eastern Europe after WW2 and I can see why Vlad is treated like that.
And just like some of the other colonial powers such as France or UK they still continued and still do similar shit TO THIS VERY DAY, nothing changed except the way they do it and leadership: some more war crimes during and after WW1, then multiple invasions of Cyprus, participation in war crimes in Korea, bombings of multiple countries in Middle East and Africa, bombing of Yugoslavia because of course they just can’t live without comiting war crimes in Balkans, supporting of terrorist organizations who traded with organs of killed civilians in Kosovo and Metohija, building an occupation base there, open genocide denial for decades, continuing to send random threats to Greece and other Balkan countries while supporting Albania who wants to snatch territory from every single neighbor, bombing of Libya, supporting terrorists, indirectly supporting ethnic cleansing in Armenia YET AGAIN by supporting Azarbaijan and most recently, in case you forgot: Syria. So yes, they stayed completely the same as they were before few hundred years just as France and UK did, same with USA, Canada etc. You cannot compare it with Ukraine as Russia didn’t do any genocides there and they’re just raging banderites today, better comparison would be Circassian genocide which was on scale of Armenian one and was committed by Russian Empire, yet they do not hold a grudge because Russia changed, Turkey didn’t. This is the stuff all Yugoslavia always agreed upon.
It doesn’t have anything to do with Islam, as Turkey itself constantly commits war crimes and antagonizes fellow Islamic countries, Turkey doesn’t represent Islam. It isn’t good to hate a single country 24/7, but when said country is constantly a threat to everyone around it even in modern times just as USA is to the entire planet, what do you expect? That would be the same if African countries stayed silent on France, Middle East stayed silent on Isn’t real or everyone stayed silent on USA.
I’m not well informed enough on the specific historical details of what happened in the Balkans in the Middle Ages to be able to judge how accurate all of that is and whether some of it is or isn’t exaggerated. I’ll leave that for others to comment on.
I am more well versed in the modern history of the region, and on that i have to say you are unfortunately right about the malign role Turkey has played and the atrocities that were committed, though frankly in my view they did most of that either as part of NATO (their involvement in Yugoslavia, Korea, etc.) or because the Western powers looked the other way and enabled/allowed them to do it (Cyprus), as they served an important role for the Anglo-Saxon imperialists in their geostrategic games first against the Russian Empire, then against the Soviet Union.
And of course Erdogan’s involvement in Syria and his constant hypocrisy in saying one thing but doing another on the issue of Palestine has also been nothing short of despicable.
That being said, i just can’t condone the kind of racism that usually comes along with the extreme anti-Turkish nationalism of the Balkans. It may not be about Islam for you, but most people who embrace these nationalist grudges don’t separate in that way, and they quickly turn it into a religion thing. I see this very often. Plus, i just don’t think that Turkey poses a threat to any of the Balkan states today, i think the whole mutual paranoia between the Turks and the Greeks over the Aegean is mostly just silly.
In the east with Armenia however…that’s a completely different story. I do think that Turkey through its support of Azerbaijan poses a significant danger to Armenia (it’s not so long ago that Nagorno Karabakh happened, when the West did absolutely nothing to denounce the Azeris for that), but i hope that their getting closer to BRICS as the whole western NATO block weakens and falls apart will calm things down there. Especially if we continue to have a strong Russian and Iranian regional influence to keep things in the Caucasus peaceful.
Considering the Armenian genocide which happened just last century, I can’t even begin to imagine parts that waren’t even documented in Middle Ages.
It’s not racism as Turkey isn’t really a race, just valid paranoia after centuries of this shit happening, while you can definitely have your average Greek, Romanian or Serb who spends 24/7 talking about Turkey and spamming Constantinople, impalement or Kebab memes because he has nothing better to do, general serious worries and dislike towards Turkey are valid since well, just look at what happened before 20 years in Balkans, with Turkey occupying parts of Kosovo and Metohija with bases and Cyprus, also bombing of Libya and of course, currently, Syria and Armenia, so the threat is constantly there. Greece definitely has to be on alert just in case considering what’s happening in every country that borders Turkey except Bulgaria, this shit is like being Mexican while Trump is president, not easy.