Hello everyone! If you have not yet seen it, @ernest has handed over moderation to @Drusas @Entropywins @ Frog-Brawler (the tag system consistently messes up the link to FB’s username lol) and myself here in !politics.
First order of business is for you all to weigh in on the community guidelines that you would like to see here. As the mod team, we will weigh all suggestions and then add them to the side bar as magazine/community rules. I’m going to give about 48 hours for users to see this thread and add a comment or discuss.
Please know that the goal is not to create an echo chamber here in !politics, but we want to ensure that there is not an encroachment of rage bait and toxicity. It brings down the quality of the magazine and it discourages community engagement.
For the time being, the mod tools are pretty sparse, so I want to manage expectations about the scope of moderation we’re able to do right now. For now, our touch will be light. Expect increased functionality as time progresses, though. We have 3 weeks of reports on file, so please know we see them. Give us some time to establish how to handle those before you start to see any movement.
Mods might want to consider which sources are blacklisted or whitelisted. Fairly straightforward thing to automate and could cut down on things that are clickbaity or just misinformation. A biased source is one thing but a site that mainly talks about lizard people or aliens probably isn’t reputable.
Might not be worth it to create a list or automation until manual moderation gets too much as that would be a chore to create.
Fully agreed about blacklists and whitelists. I would like to base those lists on something very public and transparent such as the Media Bias Chart so it doesn’t seem like the mods are being arbitrary and targeting one user just because we are opposite sides of the aisle.
Any chance we can require a secondary comment be posted with article in text form? Lots of these sites are paywalled and I can’t see the articles. There was usually some kind soul or tldr bot to post the article in the comments on /r/politics.
Good idea
One type of story (that I can’t find any good examples of here, so that’s good!) that I don’t like is the hearsay or expert-says types of stories. e.g., former-ex-prosecutor-political-insider says Trump definitely did something bad and will be charged next week.
It’s not real news masquerading as news for clicks and there’s nothing new or real to discuss in the comments.
“so-and-so slams so-and-so”-type articles are usually like this, too. It’s just political bickering and doesn’t contain any new points of discussion. Any comments on these articles is often just more attacking, since that’s where the discussion started from.
I realize these are probably quite difficult to identify and moderate objectively, but I think the community would be better off without them!
I can definitely get behind that. Most of the political anger is setup with this pot stirring he said she said shit. Granted, there still is a place for some of the puffery “I’m going to pass a law to do X” even though it may or may not happen. A lot of them can be total bullshit, like hopelessly unpopular laws being put into consideration that have no hope of even getting to vote, let alone passing. But at least that is real politics rather than the simple shit slinging of editorial content today.
When I did a bit of moderation elsewhere in the past, my own rule was “no personal attacks.” More to the point, “Please attack ideas as vigorously - and even as angrily - as you like. Even if I think you’re wrong. But as soon as you cross over into attacking the person you’re arguing with, you’re done.”
I think this would also cover the Nazi problem that @EffectivelyHidden mentions: “Being a Nazi/white supermacist/fascist” is an attack on other people.
It’s good to see such a consensus on this matter.
I updated the sidebar with preliminary guidelines last night! 😄
I’d say the biggest ones for me are:
- Be civil
- Be on topic (that’s probably a thread on its own to define what that should be)
- No editorializing/opinion/commentary in title or post body (save it for the comments)
These are okay, with the exception of giving commentary in the post body. Commentary in the post body might be a good way to tell why you think this could be especially important.
I think that can still be done in a follow up comment.
Some reasons why I suggested the rule:
- It can anchor the whole discussion and responses to OP commentary need to be made at top level. i.e., discussion may become centered around the commentary instead of the article. Especially on potentially polarizing topics.
- If I have a different commentary to give than OP, should I resubmit the article with a different editorial?
- Up/downvotes will be on the quality/merit of the article and not combined with the opinion of the submitter.
- If the commentary doesn’t fit within other rules, then the whole post needs to be removed and the article re-submitted.
- Any commentary can always be done in the comments, so we’re not really taking anything away.
As we collectively discuss this and come to a conclusion that most of us feel a sense of ownership over, I just want to state point blank that I do not want to see duplicate posts with the same link just because two users have opposite viewpoints on the ramifications of the news.
However, I’m fine with one poster giving CNN’s article on a newsworthy event and another user posting the Associated Press’s article of the same event. Those two news sources (among others) will have different perspectives, voices, and information. That lends itself to robust community engagement, to me.
I’ll piggy back on your response here to add in that I would prefer that posters copy and paste the nut graf of the news story into the body of the post.
“Nut graf” is a journalism term for the paragraph that clearly delineates what the article is about. It’s what makes the piece newsworthy. “The paragraph that explains the story in a nutshell.” The nut graf usually appears in the first three grafs of any current events piece.
I think if this is included in the body text (willing to invite more than just this paragraph, but bare minimum this graf), then readers can determine if the larger piece is worth their time to read or important.
The few times I’ve tried posting article links, kbin automatically copied the first X words of the article into the post body. I don’t suppose that includes the Nut graf?
No, usually this is only the first 50 words or first 2 sentences. I have noticed a few posts like this, now that you mentioned it. I thought the users were doing it - didn’t know that was a functionality of pulling in an article for submission.
Thanks for sharing!
No problem. You’ve got your work cut out for you, good luck!
No screenshots of article headlines. Always require a link to an article instead.
One of the biggest problems I had with reddit was the posting of editorialized headlines with no source. Once I would find the source (if the article is even real), I often find the article contradicts it’s own headline or lacks any sources for the claims made. Of course, the screenshots would be upvoted anyway because people want to be outraged, regardless if the story is accurate or not.
My first question is always going to be, what is the moderation policy for Nazi’s/white supremacists/fascists?
Are you adopting a zero tolerance policy for that sort of rabble rousing trash, the iamragesparkle method, or are you going to say your hands are tied unless they blatantly violate the community guidelines?
(transcribed from a series of tweets) - @iamragesparkle
I was at a shitty crustpunk bar once getting an after-work beer. One of those shitholes where the bartenders clearly hate you. So the bartender and I were ignoring one another when someone sits next to me and he immediately says, “no. get out.”
And the dude next to me says, “hey i’m not doing anything, i’m a paying customer.” and the bartender reaches under the counter for a bat or something and says, “out. now.” and the dude leaves, kind of yelling. And he was dressed in a punk uniform, I noticed
Anyway, I asked what that was about and the bartender was like, “you didn’t see his vest but it was all nazi shit. Iron crosses and stuff. You get to recognize them.”
And i was like, ohok and he continues.
"you have to nip it in the bud immediately. These guys come in and it’s always a nice, polite one. And you serve them because you don’t want to cause a scene. And then they become a regular and after awhile they bring a friend. And that dude is cool too.
And then THEY bring friends and the friends bring friends and they stop being cool and then you realize, oh shit, this is a Nazi bar now. And it’s too late because they’re entrenched and if you try to kick them out, they cause a PROBLEM. So you have to shut them down.
And i was like, ‘oh damn.’ and he said “yeah, you have to ignore their reasonable arguments because their end goal is to be terrible, awful people.”
And then he went back to ignoring me. But I haven’t forgotten that at all.
This sort of question is why this thread was created. I’m in favor of a zero tolerance policy for fascism, bigotry, and anything that is clearly misinformation. But that’s my personal opinion and we’ll all be working together to decide on what the community wants and what works best. Rules can also be altered as we grow, of course, if our initial guidelines aren’t sufficient.
I’m all in on the punch a Nazi approach here.
Obviously I’m 100% in the camp of “you have to ignore their reasonable arguments because their end goal is to be terrible, awful people.”
Sadly I joined this conversation late, so we will see if others filter in.
I’m very curious as to what sort of community the fedaverse as a whole has cultivated after the reddit exodus.
I don’t disagree, based on the harm that is being done. You may see me comment in that regard, but if moderation rules end up being more lenient than I am personally, based on feedback, that’s what I’ll do as a moderator. It’s about what the community wants and needs in order for genuine discussion to thrive.
Your decisions shape the community, though ;). Too lenient you’ll be reporting to trolls who demand more leniency.
I’m team zero-fash tolerance. It’s the fediverse, they can go kick rocks in gabbit or whatever they spin up.
I’m quite positively bolstered by the number of users advocating for a zero-tolerance policy regarding fascism in the magazine.
I have added preliminary community guidelines into the side bar and have made an overt stance regarding neo-nazism, white supremacy, and fascism.
Thanks for weighing in!
I have seen enough users actively combat alt-right content here that I’m happy to swing the ban hammer on neo-Nazi and pro-white supremacy content.
What I don’t want to create is an echo chamber that only permits the views of people I agree with.
I say this with all sincerity: as a progressive, we need genuine and legitimate leadership to step up and start governing again in the GOP. We don’t need people who were once too awful to embrace getting a redemption arc (a la Mitt Romney and Liz Cheney style), but real and serious political leaders. I would like this magazine to be a place to stay informed about the moves and leadership on the right that are worth building bridges with.
And as much as I hate the entire MAGA crowd, we still need to be informed of their movements and goings on. So I’m not willing to draw the line at no right wing content from right wing sources ever. But I happily draw the line at no neo-Nazi or white supremacy sympathizing.
I meant to reply yesterday but I got distracted. I have a pretty large bias against nazis / white supremacists and fascists. Unfortunately, on the fediverse, we’re not going to be able to “out now!” them at the door, simply because we’re not going to be able to tell if they’re sitting behind their keyboard (or phone) wearing a vest with iron crosses, nor will we be able to tell if they have either red or white laces in their Doc Martens.
I think that posting content (or in support of content) that falls into the categories you mentioned should equate to getting the boot though.
I would like to see more discussion around handling misinformation. The lines between misinformation, trolling, and someone being genuinely incorrect (which is still misinformation) can be blurry.
However, I personally believe that spreading misinformation is more dangerous than regular trolling. Of course, it can require research to determine whether or not something is mis/disinformation. Obviously this is a complicated subject and other social media platforms haven’t even figured it out yet.
Thanks for bringing this up!
Do you think community engagement should be a response to misinformation or moderation be the response? I’ve already seen some trolls be answered with a flurry of factual links debunking misinformation claims, and it was glorious.
It’s so hard to say.
Something which is demonstrably factually incorrect, which tends to be more in the scientific domain than the political domain, I’m personally in favor of removing so that the misinformation doesn’t spread. However, I also see a lot of value in allowing it to remain and be corrected, especially when it’s not something that can harm people (e.g., “vaccines will make you autistic and kill you!”). But then, what if it remains and nobody bothers to correct it?
I’m looking right now, as another example, at a comment which is trying to factually state that both Joe Biden and Hunter Biden are pedophiles, with nothing to back this up. I would consider it trolling in that case, but there are definitely going to be instances where it’s harder to distinguish. And of course, there will always be the crazies who believe utter nonsense.
I’d like to know more about the community’s thoughts before we try to tackle that.
This might me hard to implement… but could there be a community driven misinformation bank or facts FAQ managed by the moderators?
E.g. whenever a person repeats a clearly false narrative, instead of us participants going through the effort to describe who was indicted when or why bill XYZ doesn’t actually do Q, we can just refer to a corpus of rebuttals on the topic?
I’m interested in this idea, but I have to ask for community support on this project.
Is this something you’d like to take initiative on? waggles eyebrows convincingly
I’m with a lot of people here on opinion pieces. Those are often not even based on facts and rarely provide any actual valuable discussion. So those should be either monitored more closely to only let serious substantial opinions through, or simply barred from appearing here.
Other discussions in this thread have highlighted reputable sources of content. This can include NYT opinions and news, but would never permit content from OANN.
I hope this addresses the concern about opinion/editorial content.
It does, thanks. I have nothing against reputable sources. Just wanted to chime in about filtering/moderating that type of content in general.
I think we may need to stipulate and employ the use of badges (similar to submission flair from reddit) so that users can use kbin QoL userscripts to filter out content they don’t want.
To start, I would like to link this graphic to the community guidelines to illustrate where the cutoff is between heated debate and inappropriate bickering.
If it were up to be, I’d draw the line at Contradiction, if you’re trying to cultivate a serious magazine for thinkers.
What’s the line you’d draw if I’m trying to cultivate a clown college magazine for trolls? Hehehe (saaaarcasm)
The line would be the same, but going in the opposite direction. :)
“Be Civil” is the core value for me.
I also have a question, rather than an answer. Should all posts require the URL of an external article? Or are people allowed to post “topic for discussion” and personal opinion posts? There needs to be a place for that, I’m just not sure whether this is it. So far I haven’t found a good venue for that.
This is an excellent question and is really up to us as a community to establish. The thought had occurred to me that there’s room in our magazine for:
- politics news that is not US-based
- threads that are discussion only about political events
- responding to something clearly editorial (thinking here if a really cogent YouTuber has a video essay about political matters that isn’t rage bait)
It’s just a matter of community members saying what kind of content they want here and us establishing Badges (we can do that as mods, kind of like post flair).
Politics is all about opinion. We all have different opinions on how society should be run. If we only allow fact-based reporting, this magazine might as well just be /m/news. Opinion pieces should definitely be allowed. Maybe limit it to external opinion pieces from established institutions to keep content quality high.
Maybe my threshold for shit is higher than normal, but my hope is that comments won’t be removed but will be allowed to be downvoted into oblivion. At least when it comes to what could be considered a “political opinion.” Of course there is a subjective line somewhere where a statement crosses from “political” to just “hate.” But if a post is political, my hope would be that it gets to stand and be upvoted or downvoted, no matter how shit it might be.
A bad hot take is different than trolling activity. What I’ve seen the most of is an ineffective version of the Motte and Bailey fallacy. What I’ve seen is summarized as:
Troll: Very strong rage bait content/comment
Community user: Reasonably pissed response that this position is horseshit
Troll: Calls for civility even though they originally were like, proposing to genocide trans people, which is inhumaneThis isn’t a situation to foster. Let this kind of scum in and then they bring friends. Like roaches.
Sure. There is a subjective line where they cross from “political position that is almost certainly bad and wrong” to “bait”. Feel free to remove the bait, leave the bad takes.
What probably matters most is that the rules you establish needs to clearly state that there is a subjective line and that the user’s have to accept that fact. There is no clear rule you can write and be objective.
Yeah, I don’t think the goal can ever be pure, emotionless neutrality from a mod team.
The line may be subjective, but I want it to be transparent. Some rules may be arbitrary, but applied consistently and are sourced from the community who wants to live with them.
I would like to see a clear delineation between News articles and Opinion pieces, even if it’s just as simple as asking folks to put News: or Opinion: in the thread title.
Yes, we are triangulating around this. Others have signaled a similar take, and I’m on board with it. We may add “badges” which are similar to post flair from reddit.
To add to this, opinion articles should indicate the author. The publisher of an op-ed is mostly irrelevant and I feel like a lot of political pundits get a free pass by hiding behind publication titles.
Some forms of humor including unmarked sarcasm (may be akin to light trolling) should be allowed.
Side note: It looks like the italics markup on kbin is actually underlining for other platforms.
Thanks for sharing that bit about italics. I hadn’t realized and have been using italics myself. Do you know if bolding is working properly?
On my screen, bold works correctly. Italics can be produce from either *word* or _word_. But I feel like the latter should be underlined instead.
This is a minor point, but I would also suggest not allowing any threads or posts with all capital headlines.
Easy buy in from me. =)
