On November 21, Chinese President Xi Jinping addressed an extraordinary joint meeting of the leaders of the BRICS countries, along with the leaders of those countries who have been invited to join the cooperation mechanism from January 1, 2024, called to discuss the situation in the Middle East with particular reference to Gaza. The meeting … Continue reading Xi Jinping: the collective punishment of people in Gaza must stop
Funny, how only the International Community™ are the only ones who condemn China about Xinjiang while Muslim countries support China. If China were really genociding Muslims, wouldn’t Muslim countries care a bit more about what’s going on?
It’s not about baiting to post a link, it’s about not being able to prove a negative.You made an (outrageous) claim and you need to back it up with a source.
(Most of us actually tried to find a credible source on this topic but couldn’t find one. It always boils down to a Zenz or ASPI or another defense Industry sponsored piece)
No, the onus is on you because my views on this particular topic happens to be inline with the status quo who already provide a large body of primary sources (wikipedia, BBC, guardian, the list goes on). It is you that is challenging this status quo, and so by the scientific method, it is you who must provide the evidence to change the prevailing model.
First of all, that’s not how the “scientific method” works. If you make a claim or hypothesis, you must provide sufficient evidence to prove it. You have not. The “scientific method” is definitely not “status quo says this so it is true”, even if the status quo was on your side (it is not). It is not a surprise that your understanding of the world is so myopic if this is the level of discourse you bring here.
Secondly, you have not posited any proper claim. You have merely implied it. If you want to have some weird debate here, then at least abide by the rules of proper debates and bring forth a properly phrased claim. If your claim is that “genocide is happening in Xinjaing”, then that can be dismissed, as no credible source is still parroting that claim - it was claimed without evidence by Zenz (a far right Christian lunatic who thinks god sent him on a mission to destroy China) and amplified by American NGOs like UHRP and WUC, which are CIA-funded organizations. By your own debate rules, a claim without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. There can be other claims about Xinjiang that we would happily discuss with you, but seeing as you clearly do not respect discussion rules, it is clear that you participate in bad faith.
If you choose to present evidence to support the extraordinary claims of “genocide” then sure, we can engage. But as it stands, the genocide against Palestine is continuously filmed, and you may see kids be blown up in videos out of Gaza. There are records of close to 80 years of genocidal rhetoric from the Israeli government calling Palestinians animals, and vowing to erase them, calling to nuke them, and ordering the mass murder of them - there is intent.
To date, there has not been a single credible claim of genocide against Uyghurs in Xinjiang. Not only that, but there is no record of even the intent to genocide them by China. The laughable claim that they hate Muslims is easily countered by the fact that Uyghurs enjoy privileged status that follows from the government’s affirmative action policies towards them, and that Hui Muslims are untouched even by the claims of your own American propaganda. So please, show us the evidence and videos of people killed by China, or I challenge you to even show a single clip of China’s intent to genocide, and we may talk.
I think you’ve strongly erred here. The prevailing scientific model in any field is determined by a majority consensus of scientists who find the particular evidence compelling enough to form an authority on the matter. Anyone who wishes to change this prevailing model must have enough evidence. The onus, once again, is on those who wish to change the status quo.
As for Palestine, it has many willing neighbours to record the atrocities happening there, and tiny borders to prevent them from doing so. China has the opposite.
You are mistaking how burden of proof actually works for how cultural norms are enforced. If I assert that gravity is real, the burden of proof is still on me for making a positive claim, no matter how extremely common of a claim it is. Incidentally, it is quite easy to demonstrate by a wide range of methods. If I assert that the Holocaust is real, the burden of proof is still on me, and again it is very easy to prove because it had extensive documentation (though Nazis did also destroy a lot of the documents).
If I assert a Uighur genocide, I would need to prove it, but here I would struggle since there is very, very little documentation supporting g the claim.
my views on this particular topic happens to be inline with the status quo
Aka the hegemon which is the US
Seeing your approach to sources/science I can tell why you hold your skewed view of china. Since I can’t prove an negative, I’ll give you the Chinese perspective that gives a proper context:
my views on this particular topic happens to be inline with the status quo who already provide a large body of primary sources
“You have to prove me wrong because I agree with the governments of occidental nations who only represent 1/8th the population of the world.” Fuck off with your white supremacist “gardener” world view.
At least it cites its claims with a large burden of primary and secondary sources. I am left scratching dirt with what you guys have provided (podcasters with hour long videos).
That being said, one of you finally linked to a report that I will read later. It looks like it tries to be at least a little impartial and it was put together by at least some independent thought.
Strange cause I don’t see any evidence of a genocide…kinda hard to hide in this day and age of technology. Or are you just repeating what the Western media says?
kinda hard to hide in this day and age of technology.
This is the bit that confuses me. Before October people could say that they’ve weighed up the evidence and you can at least logically see how they get to ‘genocide’ based on the evidence they’ve deemed ‘credible’.
But now? Now there’s a real genocide happening right in front of us. We’re seeing what a real genocide looks like, and we’re seeing how hard it is to hide. How the fuck are there people who still think there’s one happening in Xinjiang?
I used to think that the one sliver of silver lining that was coming out of Palestine was that Western Governments and Private Media had destroyed their credibility by blatantly backing Israel and spinning the coverage. But nope. The West is hopeless with Sinophobia: either unaware of how bad they have it, or pretending they don’t.
Unfortunately there are members of the Palestinian diaspora I know claiming that Xinjiang is part of the globalized war on Muslims. I’m choosing to not engage with them on this out of respect for the moment, but at some point its gonna need to be addressed how they are parroting propaganda from the very same mouthpieces that are manufacturing consent for their own genocide happening right now in front of us.
I’ve also seen this, it’s very unfortunate. It really goes to show the power of US propaganda. Their media monopoly is one of their last exports tho, and eventually it will fade, just takes time.
Well yes, but also a colleague of mine is from there. He had to fight tooth and nail to get his family out and he told be often of the horrors faced by his people.
I also dated a Beijing girl for a year and she was very much of the opinion that nothing was wrong, but she was incredibly dense about a lot of things to the point that I no lover trusted her opinion.
If there’s a genocide going on you can actually provide numbers like population loss and displacement. It would be EXTREMELY HARD to cover all of this up. Look at Israel, where an actual genocide is taking place. You’re telling me that China is doing the same thing and not only does no one know about it but Muslim leaders that actually visited Xinjiang approved of China’s actions, all of those people are wrong? Sounds like your “colleague” is a liar.
I also dated a Beijing girl for a year and she was very much of the opinion that nothing was wrong, but she was incredibly dense about a lot of things to the point that I no lover trusted her opinion.
That’s cause nothing was wrong, and you’re a chauvinist. Why is her opinion any less valuable than your colleague’s? She fucking lives there dude
Dense. She treated people she barely knew like dirt, the entire time I holidayed with her in China she would look down on the culture of the different towns as if Beijing was the holy grail, and she would constantly competitively insert herself into someone else’s conversation. I loved her, because she could be incredibly sweet, but she was also capable of being incredibly mean. But fine, that makes me a chauvanist.
Nah that doesn’t make you a chauvinist but it does mean you’re using the word dense wrong especially if the above behaviors are your examples for it. Anyway, ignore my low effort cheap shot. It’s not really worth responding to other people will actually engage with you on the subject.
As hominem aside, I keep trying in the hopes that something materialises. I’m always happy to persuaded I’m wrong on a topic, but I’m not seeing the silver bullet here
I also dated a Beijing girl for a year and she was very much of the opinion that nothing was wrong, but she was incredibly dense about a lot of things to the point that I no lover trusted her opinion.
“I dated a girl from China who I don’t respect so the opposite of what she says must be true” is not the slam dunk argument you seem to think it is.
Obviously not, but her opinion on all topics parroted the party line so often, so patriotically, that I assume that anyone who repeats the state media in any country is likely being fed lies.
Dude, I am asking for information. I am more that happy to update my beliefs, I just need one convincing source. If you have nothing to offer but abuse, then don’t worry about it.
Remember also that a big aspect of colonizer guilt, is accusing your enemies of that which you are guilty of (the west accusing China of being anti-muslim, accusing the USSR of anti-semitism, etc) This is why average USonians can’t accept the idea that other countries haven’t committed genocide, and are not as evil as theirs is, and default to a “all countries bad”.
Nope. Muslim countries are telling you that a genocide isn’t happening. So why do you believe Adrian Zenz (the source of these claims, a white supremacist christian evangelical), and the western countries who have been bombing Muslim countries for decades, and the US who is in the middle of a trade war with China?
A Reddit link was detected in your comment. Here are links to the same location on Teddit and Libreddit, which are Reddit frontends that protect your privacy.
First of all the article is written by probably the 2 most highly respected German sinologists: Thomas Heberer, a senior professor of Chinese politics and society at the University of Duisburg-Essen and Helwig Schmidt-Glintzer, a senior professor of Chinese studies and the director of the China Centrum Tübingen (CCT).
They write that even though “the travel group could not ascertain general discrimination against the Uighur language and culture, in Xinjiang, as in all areas of ethnic minorities with their language and script, the main language of instruction in schools from secondary level is Mandarin. The native language is always offered as a subject in compulsory schooling.”
Their conclusion: “If the human rights situation continues to normalize demonstrably, the EU should initiate dialogue and reconsider the sanctions imposed on China due to Xinjiang.”
Media companies and individual articles don’t necessarily represent their entire countries, and these countries are not monoliths of opinion. Qatar for example voted multiple times against considering this a genocide, most recently in 2022 by voting to block a US initiative in the UNHRC trying to open up a debate about this.
Again, it’s only the white colonizer countries, who have been bombing Muslims for decades, that are trying to accuse their enemies of their own crimes. Why do you believe them?
It’s been like 4 years now, that shit’s been debunked (by the west, no less) through and through. They literally invented that narrative to distract from the fact they were funding fascists in the region, and it worked because the average american is basically an anticommunist nazi who has no problem accepting shit if it aligns with their internalized fascism, but asks for “Source???” to anyone with a different prospective.
Hell, Fox news even bragged about how they were going to run a “Sinofication” narrative and people STILL bought it hook line and sinker.
Colour me an anticommunist Nazi (my voting habits, open source contirbutions, and my second generation immigrant background would hint otherwise, but fine boil me down to a single instance on a single matter), I would love to see a source on this because it’s genuinely the first I’ve heard of it
Uh, here, there’s a comprehensive response video to the claim of genocide in Xinjiang, just to balance it out…
(eg. debunks the source of the 1 million imprisoned):
Wikipedia is out, but this guy is in. Is there no better source to the claim that the West themselves debunked their own claim of Chinese genocide? A more neutral source even? I’ll even take Chomsky as he has a good tendency to present facts and let the readers decide.
I appreciate the effort, but you can maybe understand why I would be hesitant to listen to an hour long video that ties together several secondary Chinese sources (who have to parrot the party line) to support his point. His more recognisable sources (Guardian, CNN, BBC) only highlight the plight more.
You mentioned earlier that the west debunked their own narrative. Their must be a western media source for this somewhere.
No…? China and Uighurs
Funny, how only the International Community™ are the only ones who condemn China about Xinjiang while Muslim countries support China. If China were really genociding Muslims, wouldn’t Muslim countries care a bit more about what’s going on?
Obviously China bought all those muslims! Brown people can not form their own opinions!11111
I still don’t get it (forgive me for being dense)
Is this really not a case of the Pot calling the kettle black?
Citation needed
I feel like I’m being baited into posting links, so I won’t - but on duckduckduckgo schreib “!w Xianjiang Int* ca*ps”
Wikipedia tends to be a good source of information.
I’ve found one part of the problem
It’s not about baiting to post a link, it’s about not being able to prove a negative.You made an (outrageous) claim and you need to back it up with a source. (Most of us actually tried to find a credible source on this topic but couldn’t find one. It always boils down to a Zenz or ASPI or another defense Industry sponsored piece)
deleted by creator
No, the onus is on you because my views on this particular topic happens to be inline with the status quo who already provide a large body of primary sources (wikipedia, BBC, guardian, the list goes on). It is you that is challenging this status quo, and so by the scientific method, it is you who must provide the evidence to change the prevailing model.
First of all, that’s not how the “scientific method” works. If you make a claim or hypothesis, you must provide sufficient evidence to prove it. You have not. The “scientific method” is definitely not “status quo says this so it is true”, even if the status quo was on your side (it is not). It is not a surprise that your understanding of the world is so myopic if this is the level of discourse you bring here.
Secondly, you have not posited any proper claim. You have merely implied it. If you want to have some weird debate here, then at least abide by the rules of proper debates and bring forth a properly phrased claim. If your claim is that “genocide is happening in Xinjaing”, then that can be dismissed, as no credible source is still parroting that claim - it was claimed without evidence by Zenz (a far right Christian lunatic who thinks god sent him on a mission to destroy China) and amplified by American NGOs like UHRP and WUC, which are CIA-funded organizations. By your own debate rules, a claim without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. There can be other claims about Xinjiang that we would happily discuss with you, but seeing as you clearly do not respect discussion rules, it is clear that you participate in bad faith.
If you choose to present evidence to support the extraordinary claims of “genocide” then sure, we can engage. But as it stands, the genocide against Palestine is continuously filmed, and you may see kids be blown up in videos out of Gaza. There are records of close to 80 years of genocidal rhetoric from the Israeli government calling Palestinians animals, and vowing to erase them, calling to nuke them, and ordering the mass murder of them - there is intent.
To date, there has not been a single credible claim of genocide against Uyghurs in Xinjiang. Not only that, but there is no record of even the intent to genocide them by China. The laughable claim that they hate Muslims is easily countered by the fact that Uyghurs enjoy privileged status that follows from the government’s affirmative action policies towards them, and that Hui Muslims are untouched even by the claims of your own American propaganda. So please, show us the evidence and videos of people killed by China, or I challenge you to even show a single clip of China’s intent to genocide, and we may talk.
I think you’ve strongly erred here. The prevailing scientific model in any field is determined by a majority consensus of scientists who find the particular evidence compelling enough to form an authority on the matter. Anyone who wishes to change this prevailing model must have enough evidence. The onus, once again, is on those who wish to change the status quo.
As for Palestine, it has many willing neighbours to record the atrocities happening there, and tiny borders to prevent them from doing so. China has the opposite.
I don’t think you understand what a primary source is… https://apus.libanswers.com/faq/2299 => Wikipedia is (like all encyclopedias) a tertiary source
Yeah, sad that it just happens to be a fantastic provider of primary sources
You are mistaking how burden of proof actually works for how cultural norms are enforced. If I assert that gravity is real, the burden of proof is still on me for making a positive claim, no matter how extremely common of a claim it is. Incidentally, it is quite easy to demonstrate by a wide range of methods. If I assert that the Holocaust is real, the burden of proof is still on me, and again it is very easy to prove because it had extensive documentation (though Nazis did also destroy a lot of the documents).
If I assert a Uighur genocide, I would need to prove it, but here I would struggle since there is very, very little documentation supporting g the claim.
Aka the hegemon which is the US
Seeing your approach to sources/science I can tell why you hold your skewed view of china. Since I can’t prove an negative, I’ll give you the Chinese perspective that gives a proper context:
https://www.qiaocollective.com/education/xinjiang
The onus is now on you to prove that you don’t fuck trashcans. After all, my feeling that you do it in line with the status quo here.
Wikipedia is not a good source of information, didn’t they teach you that in grade school?
The entire platform was written more or less by one guy and the place is censored to shit after neoliberals captured the mod team.
At least it cites its claims with a large burden of primary and secondary sources. I am left scratching dirt with what you guys have provided (podcasters with hour long videos).
That being said, one of you finally linked to a report that I will read later. It looks like it tries to be at least a little impartial and it was put together by at least some independent thought.
It is a decidedly bad source of information on enemies of the State Department.
Also, just as an ESL thing, it looks like you slipped back into German there with “schreib” instead of “write” or “type”
Strange cause I don’t see any evidence of a genocide…kinda hard to hide in this day and age of technology. Or are you just repeating what the Western media says?
This is the bit that confuses me. Before October people could say that they’ve weighed up the evidence and you can at least logically see how they get to ‘genocide’ based on the evidence they’ve deemed ‘credible’.
But now? Now there’s a real genocide happening right in front of us. We’re seeing what a real genocide looks like, and we’re seeing how hard it is to hide. How the fuck are there people who still think there’s one happening in Xinjiang?
I used to think that the one sliver of silver lining that was coming out of Palestine was that Western Governments and Private Media had destroyed their credibility by blatantly backing Israel and spinning the coverage. But nope. The West is hopeless with Sinophobia: either unaware of how bad they have it, or pretending they don’t.
Unfortunately there are members of the Palestinian diaspora I know claiming that Xinjiang is part of the globalized war on Muslims. I’m choosing to not engage with them on this out of respect for the moment, but at some point its gonna need to be addressed how they are parroting propaganda from the very same mouthpieces that are manufacturing consent for their own genocide happening right now in front of us.
I’ve also seen this, it’s very unfortunate. It really goes to show the power of US propaganda. Their media monopoly is one of their last exports tho, and eventually it will fade, just takes time.
Well yes, but also a colleague of mine is from there. He had to fight tooth and nail to get his family out and he told be often of the horrors faced by his people.
I also dated a Beijing girl for a year and she was very much of the opinion that nothing was wrong, but she was incredibly dense about a lot of things to the point that I no lover trusted her opinion.
If there’s a genocide going on you can actually provide numbers like population loss and displacement. It would be EXTREMELY HARD to cover all of this up. Look at Israel, where an actual genocide is taking place. You’re telling me that China is doing the same thing and not only does no one know about it but Muslim leaders that actually visited Xinjiang approved of China’s actions, all of those people are wrong? Sounds like your “colleague” is a liar.
That’s cause nothing was wrong, and you’re a chauvinist. Why is her opinion any less valuable than your colleague’s? She fucking lives there dude
Incredibly dense or just didn’t agree with you?
Dense. She treated people she barely knew like dirt, the entire time I holidayed with her in China she would look down on the culture of the different towns as if Beijing was the holy grail, and she would constantly competitively insert herself into someone else’s conversation. I loved her, because she could be incredibly sweet, but she was also capable of being incredibly mean. But fine, that makes me a chauvanist.
Nah that doesn’t make you a chauvinist but it does mean you’re using the word dense wrong especially if the above behaviors are your examples for it. Anyway, ignore my low effort cheap shot. It’s not really worth responding to other people will actually engage with you on the subject.
As hominem aside, I keep trying in the hopes that something materialises. I’m always happy to persuaded I’m wrong on a topic, but I’m not seeing the silver bullet here
So in summary: you trust what the man has to say and don’t trust what the woman has to say.
“I dated a girl from China who I don’t respect so the opposite of what she says must be true” is not the slam dunk argument you seem to think it is.
Obviously not, but her opinion on all topics parroted the party line so often, so patriotically, that I assume that anyone who repeats the state media in any country is likely being fed lies.
Except you. You are the special boy who’s immune to propaganda.
Dude, I am asking for information. I am more that happy to update my beliefs, I just need one convincing source. If you have nothing to offer but abuse, then don’t worry about it.
Are you not parroting the Western party line? Idk, I think this is a situation of glass houses and stones wrt your criticism of your ex.
deleted by creator
Remember also that a big aspect of colonizer guilt, is accusing your enemies of that which you are guilty of (the west accusing China of being anti-muslim, accusing the USSR of anti-semitism, etc) This is why average USonians can’t accept the idea that other countries haven’t committed genocide, and are not as evil as theirs is, and default to a “all countries bad”.
Nope. Muslim countries are telling you that a genocide isn’t happening. So why do you believe Adrian Zenz (the source of these claims, a white supremacist christian evangelical), and the western countries who have been bombing Muslim countries for decades, and the US who is in the middle of a trade war with China?
You forgot zenz is a nazi apologist
Could I get a mirror of this? Reddit media links are totally broken for me and always redirect to this one post
Greatly appreciated.
A Reddit link was detected in your comment. Here are links to the same location on Teddit and Libreddit, which are Reddit frontends that protect your privacy.
That would be a great point, except that the official line from both Aljazeera and TRT say otherwise:
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/7/8/uighurs-timeline
https://www.trtworld.com/turkey/china-s-unease-over-türkiye-s-support-for-uighurs-has-hurt-ties-ankara-63990
An absolute bombshell of an article on Xinjiang from Neue Zürcher Zeitung
Also: https://www.qiaocollective.com/education/xinjiang
And if there are any genocides going on, things like this wouldn’t even happen: Xinjiang defies Western curbs as foreign trade hits record high, surges by 47%
Alright! Thanks for this, I will check these out and get back to you, likely with follow up questions
Media companies and individual articles don’t necessarily represent their entire countries, and these countries are not monoliths of opinion. Qatar for example voted multiple times against considering this a genocide, most recently in 2022 by voting to block a US initiative in the UNHRC trying to open up a debate about this.
Again, it’s only the white colonizer countries, who have been bombing Muslims for decades, that are trying to accuse their enemies of their own crimes. Why do you believe them?
It’s been like 4 years now, that shit’s been debunked (by the west, no less) through and through. They literally invented that narrative to distract from the fact they were funding fascists in the region, and it worked because the average american is basically an anticommunist nazi who has no problem accepting shit if it aligns with their internalized fascism, but asks for “Source???” to anyone with a different prospective.
Hell, Fox news even bragged about how they were going to run a “Sinofication” narrative and people STILL bought it hook line and sinker.
Colour me an anticommunist Nazi (my voting habits, open source contirbutions, and my second generation immigrant background would hint otherwise, but fine boil me down to a single instance on a single matter), I would love to see a source on this because it’s genuinely the first I’ve heard of it
Uh, here, there’s a comprehensive response video to the claim of genocide in Xinjiang, just to balance it out… (eg. debunks the source of the 1 million imprisoned):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGQeF62zdCc
What, Slavic I suppose?
the reuploader of the vid is a patsoc who frequently reposts haz and maupin
What? So, by association, is BayArea415 a patsoc? Don’t remember that…
I found a YouTube link in your comment. Here are links to the same video on alternative frontends that protect your privacy:
Way off, but what does it matter at this point.
Wikipedia is out, but this guy is in. Is there no better source to the claim that the West themselves debunked their own claim of Chinese genocide? A more neutral source even? I’ll even take Chomsky as he has a good tendency to present facts and let the readers decide.
Ok, I’m sorry then, here’s another video with nuance:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cz9ICFDk8Js&
Note: don’t worry, the guy is critical of China…
I found a YouTube link in your comment. Here are links to the same video on alternative frontends that protect your privacy:
I appreciate the effort, but you can maybe understand why I would be hesitant to listen to an hour long video that ties together several secondary Chinese sources (who have to parrot the party line) to support his point. His more recognisable sources (Guardian, CNN, BBC) only highlight the plight more.
You mentioned earlier that the west debunked their own narrative. Their must be a western media source for this somewhere.
if you hadn’t ignored the link in my reply yesterday, you’d have found many such sources, including this report
Thanks! I will check this out and report back
deleted by creator
deleted by creator