We recently received a message from a concerned Rammy user regarding their instance not having an active admin team.

We have made attempts to contact the Rammy admins, which other instance admins have tried as well, to determine their current status. Due to their admins being absent and their unmoderated content growing in numbers, we will defederate from Rammy. If and when this situation changes, we will be happy to reevaluate our approach. It should be noted that any instances that have abandoned admin teams will be defederated.

  • tallwookie@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    how does that work - I mean, who’s paying the bills for the instance if it’s unmoderated? weird

      • c0c0c0@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        What’s that? It’s on somebody’s property. Someone is paying for power, connectivity, and air conditioning.

          • Mossy Feathers (They/Them)@pawb.social
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            1 year ago

            Damn, not sure if this is a joke or speculation, but imagine the shit storm they’re gonna come back to. I kinda feel bad for them if they didn’t intend for this to happen and the cleanup they’ll have to do, but at the same time, they kinda shoulda made sure they had a backup, or at least closed sign-ups while they were gone (assuming it wasn’t a medical emergency).

        • Dandroid@dandroid.app
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          1 year ago

          I host my instance in my house on my old PC. I’m going to pay my power bill either way. It actually autopays. So if I had a medical emergency and couldn’t do my admin duties, my instance would keep on going for a very long time.

          I don’t have any users on my instance other than me, so I don’t need to worry about this specific thing. But paying the miniscule amount of power that my server consumes would be trivial.

            • HTTP_404_NotFound@lemmyonline.com
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              1 year ago

              As someone who hosts a small instance, nothing massive…

              Honestly, nothing.

              The only benefit I get- is full control over weather my instance is up or two. I know for absolute certain that my instance isn’t going to randomly shutdown, and not come back online.

              I also have the benefit of having a lot of control over how fast my instance is, and performance optimizations as needed to make it perform as I would like. As such, for me, the performance is outstanding.

              With that said,

              Basically everything else is downsides.

              Having to proactively moderate content originating from your server, is a drag. The moderation tools in Lemmy are absolute dog-shit. Your only option here is to use either 3rd party tools (lemmy-helper), or to just run database queries.

              PictRS just keeps growing and growing. pictures gets synced to every instance, and those take up room. Lots of room. PictRS has even less moderation tools then lemmy. If you want to make sure your user aren’t uploading illicit/illegal content, is a major pain in the ass. My solution was to run a few scripts to fetch all of the content, and just run it through some AI scanning software to attempt to detect bad content. But, still, a pain in the ass.

              Those attacks you read about here on lemmy world. Those happen to our smaller instances too. Every time you hear @[email protected] doing an update here- we are also working on plans for updating the instance. Granted- my small user base makes these upgrades much easier and faster. But- we will have to do these updates. (At least on the plus side, my instances isn’t constantly under a DOS attack, due to a disgruntled member, or due to a pissed off instance which was defederated)

              And, lastly, one downside of lemmy- things don’t really go away or get cleaned up. Your database and storage will continue to grow and grow, and grow. Again, to restate, There are basically no moderation or administration tools included with lemmy. You can see reports. You can ban users. And, you can delete posts. Thats about it.

              There isn’t an easy way to even list users, comments, posts, or activity happening on your instances… through lemmy itself.

              On top of those other issues, lemmy is very chatty, network wise.

              Here are the incoming stats, from my “small” instance.

              In terms of outgoing, it’s very chatty there too. You will find all sorts of weird and random outbound DNS records.

              tldr; Its prob not worth hosting your own instance, unless you just really like playing around with infrastructure, networking, databases, and digging through application issues.

              Personally though- I enjoy the challenge, and that is one reason I keep doing it.

            • Dandroid@dandroid.app
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              1 year ago

              I don’t need to worry about the instance going down due to attacks, because no one is going to spend their time attacking an instance with one person. They want to attack an instance with everyone.

              I also don’t need to worry about defederation drama. If I’m not subscribed to any communities on those problem instances, I don’t even see the problem, and my server doesn’t rehost those problems. I was originally on lemmy.world, and then Beehaw defederate with lemmy.world. But I wanted to see Beehaw’s content. Now I can see both. No one is going to defederate with me because no one on my instance (literally just me) is doing anything that would get us defederated.

              I also don’t need to wait for my instance to update to get new features. I literally just update my instance as soon it gets posted to Docker Hub.

              I also just find it fun to host my own! I already had my domain name and wasn’t using it for anything. I already had a server ready to go. So why not?

              • fmstrat@lemmy.nowsci.com
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                1 year ago

                You may still get content from problem posters from those instances coming via other instances that have federated with them. I make some tools for small Lemmy instances, and while I haven’t posted this one yet, Lemmy Defederation Sync might be a good one for you: https://github.com/fmstrat/lds. LCS and LPP are there, too.

                • Dandroid@dandroid.app
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                  1 year ago

                  I guess I worry about when it happens. I haven’t seen anything like that yet, so I see no point in doing anything about it.

            • Bilb!@lem.monster
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              1 year ago

              In my case, the major upside is that I make federation choices, not someone else. I prefer to be as openly federated as possible.

              • b1ab@lem.monster
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                1 year ago

                Hi bilb, this is blab. I just wanted to say thank you for your approach. You run a wonderful server.

        • ultimate_question@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          I imagine a lot of people have jobs where it would be trivial to set something like this up on company resources under the radar and then lose access / get laid off without the company ever knowing it’s running

          • rog@lemmy.one
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            1 year ago

            This is pretty unlikely. Any competent IT department would notice an externally facing project.

            I think its more likely that its on a vps or something and they just paid for like a year upfront.

            • ubergeek77@lemmy.ubergeek77.chat
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              No. It’s very likely. Not every company is run like a FAANG company with everything under a microscope. At your average company, it’s extremely common for individual teams to just have their own cloud service accounts for internal team use, not as tightly controlled as a company’s production cloud services account. I’d argue most of them are very loosely managed by a single person, letting said person do pretty much whatever they want.

              And if those accounts have thousands of dollars in AWS credit or something, this could run under the radar for up to 6 months uninterrupted, depending on when the credits expire. Most credits are handed out for free from the cloud service provider with no cost auditing or anything of the like.

              I’m in a position where I could do this myself at work with very low risk of getting caught. I just have no interest in doing so, and I’d rather not be fired if I did get caught. But it’s definitely possible.

              • rog@lemmy.one
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                1 year ago

                Possible does not equate to likely. Its a pretty ridiculous scenario to assume when its much more reasonable to suspect that its just being hosted on a stable system and paid in advanced.

              • 𝒍𝒆𝒎𝒂𝒏𝒏@lemmy.one
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                1 year ago

                At mine, we get our own personal public dev sites which can host whatever code & software we like, alongside the products we develop and their APIs.

                Totally possible to set up a lemmy instance and nobody would know, but not worth losing a job over at all if caught.

        • Antik 👾@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          I think they mean it’s just running on someone’s homelab. So there is no real monthly billing.

          Edit: so the IP belongs to contabo.com hosting. They provide cheap vps instances with 4 cores, 8gb ram, 50gb nvme and 32tb of monthly traffic which is plenty to start hosting a Lemmy instance. Could be they paid for a year and went on holiday or something like that. Who knows

          • teejay@lemmy.world
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            1 year ago

            That’s… not how bills work. Someone has to pay for the electricity, internet traffic / connectivity, and rent / mortgage for the server to exist somewhere. That’s true whether it’s self-hosted in someone’s basement or in a data center somewhere.

            • HTTP_404_NotFound@lemmyonline.com
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              1 year ago

              You technically aren’t wrong.

              But, in my case, I already had all of the capacity paid for regardless. I’d say, lemmy runs me around 20-30w of load total.

              30w * 24 hours * 30 days = 21,600Wh / 1,000 = 21Kwh * 0.08c = 1.68$ per month.

              In reality, the power load is quite a bit less, and my calculations don’t account for the solar panels on my roof.

              Given, I have around 140-160T of total storage capacity, its not really worth putting a price on the small amount used by lemmy. My internet is paid regardless, and lemmy usage is typically pretty low (typically measured in Kb/s). So, not really worth putting a price here, as it averages less then 1% of my total connection.

              If, I wanted to put a price tag on it, my labor to actually support and maintain it, would be where all of the money went to.

            • Eufalconimorph@discuss.tchncs.de
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              1 year ago

              Contabo’s sign up page lets you pay for up to 12 months at a time, in advance. It’s quite possible they paid for a year, set it up, and then forgot about it or haven’t been able to administer it for other reasons.

              • Antik 👾@lemmy.world
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                1 year ago

                I’m still trying to understand what he means with the rent or mortgage thing… Of course there is a cost but he doesn’t seem to understand how something like that easily stays under the radar… you are not going to notice it when a certain bill goes up for the little bit it costs to self host or what impact it will have on your mortgage… There are things like data usage that will be easier and clearer indicators

            • Antik 👾@lemmy.world
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              1 year ago

              As if everyone running a home server has proper monitoring. You think running an instance is going to make a noticeable difference on your electric bill? Mortgage for the server?

        • Magnor@lemmy.magnor.ovh
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          1 year ago

          Rammy is running 0.18.0 which still has the bloated postgres database issue, so storage should be ramping up real fast. It is still technically possible to forget about it, don’t get me wrong. I was merely pointing out it is not the only possibility.

            • voidMainVoid@lemmy.world
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              1 year ago

              Could somebody set an instance up on a nes

              I think that in order to run Lemmy you’d need at least a PlayStation.

            • Magnor@lemmy.magnor.ovh
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              1 year ago

              No worries, I took no offense.

              Technically yes one could, absolutely. No disputing that. Automatic defederation is not a thing afaik, so it would stay federated.

              I run a script daily on my instance to defederate suspicious instances (no post but thousands of users for example) but not everybody does.

    • merthyr1831@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      It’s not necessarily super expensive for someone who wants to host an instance, whether it’s at home or via server providers. Hosting a GOOD and high-traffic instance might cost more but still any nerd with disposable income can do it if they want.

  • breadsmasher@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    that instance is full to the brim of crazies who have lost all grip on reality. they feel nothing but hate

  • Estiar@sh.itjust.works
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    1 year ago

    It got really bad just over the past two days. I’m not sure if it’s a raid from some right wing troll farm, or what it is. Defederation makes things easy though

    • Clbull@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      Apparently it came from Exploding Heads, an instance that Lemmy.world already defederated from.

    • TheMadnessKing@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      Yeah but defed has an issue where it might just lead to bigger echo chambers for the users.

      Don’t like this view, defed the instance and so and so forth. I think defed should only be used for last resort action like in this case an awful lot of spam. Just because their political views are left, right or center shouldn’t be used as reason for defed.

      • GONADS125@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        What about how these assholes were harassing LGBTQ+ users with hate? Defederation was called for and urgently needed. That behavior is indefensible and breaks site rules.

      • keegomatic@kbin.social
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        1 year ago

        Not really an issue. If you want to see this content from defederated instances that everyone else finds obnoxious or disruptive, then you can either browse from an instance that doesn’t defederate that content, or spin up your own personal instance to browse from. It’s easy to move to a different instance. Your choice.

    • KrisND@lemmy.world
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      What makes it possible right wing and not just a troll farm? Sincerely curious why make the divide and note.

      EDIT: I checked it out, I see the issue with Rammy. And yes, there is a lot of spam/hate fest, it’s not that all right wings are extremist just as much as “left wing” isn’t all extremist. We’re all people in the end and imo we shouldn’t let it divide everything further by labels and stereotyping.

      • Antik 👾@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        It’s the same people from exploding heads that are in these threads. They circumvent the defederation by taking over another instance.

        • 1984@lemmy.today
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          1 year ago

          Who are those guys? They posted a thread on my instance trying to get people over to exploding heads… They don’t seem to have all their horses in the stable, if you know what I mean.

            • GONADS125@lemmy.world
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              1 year ago

              And defederation is necessary to stop more recruitment/indoctrination of the lowest common denominator, who are very susceptible to appeals to emotional reasoning and propoganda techniques.

        • KrisND@lemmy.world
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          I’m fresh to lemmy so know very little in relation. But put that way makes more sense. Group of known trolls who move one to another to degrade and break the network.

          Isn’t it possible to enable an automod feature for keywords or something across lemmy? I would image that would help.

      • Feathercrown@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        idk at this point I don’t want to associate with some people. Being divided sucks but being united might actually be worse.

        • Cyber Yuki@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          Not just that; at this point it’s impossible to dismiss that State-sponsored actors are a thing and must be considered in our threat models. If an instance is unmoderated, be sure for-profit trolls will arrive and start wreaking havoc there.

        • stevedidWHAT@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          Mmmm

          Idk man I’m not convinced it’s the theory’s fault and not the implementation.

          In other words, if people were more respectful of each other and were more understanding of the difference between real objective truths and subjective opinions, it wouldn’t be so bad. However with how high the stakes are for a lot of these various discussion points I can’t blame them and people want to do the right thing and fight loyally for their own side which translates to aggression for most (sadly)

          Idk man bein a human is complex

        • KrisND@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          I would not support uniting with those trolls in any way. I had not even looked at it beforehand. I agree that being divided sucks. But I think it’s important to remember that there are still good people out there, even if we don’t agree on everything. We need to find ways to come together and work towards a better future, even if it’s not always easy.

          If I create a social media account and identify as left-leaning, I am bombarded with extremist right-wing content. The opposite is true if I identify as right-leaning. This has ruined social media for me, which is why I immediately blocked the news and political communities on Lemmy.

          I do not identify as either left-wing or right-wing. I share views that are generally considered to be down the middle. This is true for the majority of people I know, who used to be called independents but now undecided. I guess thats why when an entire group is called out, it rubs me the wrong way.

          • Feathercrown@lemmy.world
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            1 year ago

            So I actually used to be in exactly your position. Policies used to be much more subjective. Urban planning? Financial stuff? Foreign policy? These are complicated questions with varying answers from not just different parties but different politicians. But things have changed recently. I feel like that’s actually a major part of the issues here that people are overlooking. People on the left jump on change faster overall so they’ve realized what’s happened to the right before the people who usually vote for the right have.

            I don’t like blaming an entire group either but I’ve been pushed to believe it’s currently necessary. Being an independent isn’t about always choosing a compromise between the two extreme positions, it’s about deciding for yourself what policies are the most reasonable. Assuming your own views don’t change, this means that if one party moves further away from the middle, their views won’t align with your own as much. This can happen to both parties, but in my case I feel that the right has moved much further away from my views than the left has in the same period of time, so while I agree that the best position is somewhere in the middle of extreme right and left, that’s currently closer to the left for me and the right has begun to take positions that I find indefensible. If they swung back to where they were a decade ago things might be different.

      • stevedidWHAT@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        Nah, you’re not gonna muddy these waters, the right by far outweighs in terms of extremists.

        They’re literally conservative religious people. It isn’t rocket science just look at the Middle East

        • KrisND@lemmy.world
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          Muddy what waters? Maybe see more of my replies for context.

          Who are we talking about “They’re literally conservative religious people”, as in the rammy trolls or everyone right leaning? Because I already agreed the 20secs I saw the homepage it was unmodded, uncensored crazies.

          Where does the middle east come in here, you say it like I’m already supposed to know. I also said, I block news and politics, left other social networks because of all the politics.

          I started this as in, why divide and basically make tribes like “Anyone in a different party is bad”. And I never said left or right was worse, I said I’ve had the bad luck from coming across both but that don’t mean all left or all right is all bad…

          • stevedidWHAT@lemmy.world
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            1 year ago

            Sure I can clarify!

            So when you said “why does it have to be a right leaning and not some other side” and then said in your edit that not all of one side is bad - it eludes to your point being (from what I understand) “it wasn’t right to assume it was conservatives”

            I’m arguing that they are largely responsible for extremism and are likely correlated to strict conservative religious upbringings. I then provided an example of the Middle East and terrorism in general correlating (in this case directly) with strict, dominant religious upbringings (I made this last term up, I just mean religions that expressly condone other religions)

            • KrisND@lemmy.world
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              Could you link where I said “why does it have to be a right leaning and not some other side” such as you quoted, I didn’t mean to put it that way, because my point is I hate sides, especially bad apples poisoning the whole barrel (left or right). What I said was:

              “What makes it possible right wing and not just a troll farm? Sincerely curious why make the divide and note.”

              And in regards to my edit, I explained in one reply that I’m new here (https://lemmy.world/comment/2127411). And now I see I probably should’ve added that in my edit as well that I was coming at this literally being fresh to lemmy with no history and trying to understand why ppl were bashing all right wing with this group. After this reply https://lemmy.world/comment/2126263 I had more background on the fact that it is a known group that does this often.

              However, I have still defended that correlating a bad group (as I agreed with multiple times) that is part of a large group makes the whole group bad, I don’t believe is a good way of looking at it imo.

              • stevedidWHAT@lemmy.world
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                1 year ago

                It’s not necessarily going to be an accurate judgment but it is likely that you will be correct if predicting (that means purely predicting, not taking any real action or indirect action, only guesses) which is what the commenter you responded to was doing.

                Generalization when used to prejudge someone’s character and taking action, especially serious action is very bad. But predicting the responsible party of an openly hateful and vile event based off previous events is just fine. It should not ever be labeled as fact without evidence however.

                Don’t worry about being new, it’s all good we’re just havin a discussion. The quote I did originally was supposed to be by understood summary of what you were saying but I only said that for the second point I made and didn’t go back to fix it - sorry about that

      • Estiar@sh.itjust.works
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        I didn’t look to much into it. I don’t want to see that sort of content.

        Though not many people the right are trolls, the trolls are very loud. And on Rammy.

        • KrisND@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          Yeah, I don’t blame you. It didn’t take more than 20 seconds on the homepage for me to leave. Those posters are by far extremist, conspiracy nuts.

      • GONADS125@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        Nah, call the alt-right extremists out for what they are. Tankies too.

        If you’re a reasonable conservative, you shouldn’t feel called out by condemnation of the extremists.

  • Draconic NEO@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    Unfortunate but very much necessary to stop the spread of their hatred. This is why it’s important to have a team of admins, so that it’s less likely that the person running the server doesn’t just disappear one day and they can continue maintaining it even if the main person isn’t there. Maybe if you’re an individual instance you can’t afford to hire a team of people, but you could get a group of friends together and have all of you work together to run it, think of it like a group passion project it’s important to make sure that something like this doesn’t end up abandoned otherwise it can cause problems for others if people start abusing it.

    I know a lot of people are in doubt about how bad it is, but I went there and I looked at it and it’s honestly terrible worse than the Donald on Reddit (if anyone can remember that) we don’t want to rehost that kind of stuff on this server, we don’t want to be associated with those kinds of people, it’s not worth it. They can still have their free speech on their platform, just not on our server and we don’t have to put up with it.

    • Antik 👾@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      Yes they can keep their hate on their own instances but they are not welcome in our house. Keep reporting these extremists wether they are right of left wing - because it’s a never-ending fight.

  • nieceandtows@programming.dev
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    1 year ago

    It’s interesting that they have their own instance, but can’t stand the fact that they got defederated, and have to keep finding ways to get that sweet attention they crave.

  • Yerbouti@lemmy.ml
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    1 year ago

    Question here. If a user suscribed to world wants to keep seing content from that instance, cant he just suscribe to some subs over there? I’m still trying to figure that part out. I’m on ml but can see some content from world.

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      1 year ago

      No, you will not see content from Rammy on LW. If you want to interact with both you’ll need to have an account on an instance that federates both. I’m sure there are some out there, and if not starting your own is an option.

      • hydrospanner@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        And this, I feel, is one of the biggest issues with Lemmy…and unfortunately one that I could easily see being its Achilles Heel and ultimate undoing as a viable, sustainable model in the long term.

        • Freeman@lemmy.pub
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          1 year ago

          neigh. I think its one of the best.

          Want ot make sure your instance is up, and is predictable and federated? Heres a guide

          1. Roll your own

          2. Dont troll or be a dick and you wont get deferated. Bigger instances have better things to worry about

          As it sits things like the downtime, the porn spam to random@kbin, the federation drama have left me largely unaffected. I get to see what I want based on my subs and nothing more. If someone is trolling me I can even ban them and still see content, without their comments or contributions.

          Im not reliant on a large corp to decide im worthy. I get to have downtime on my clock. etc.

    • Album@lemmy.ca
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      1 year ago

      As a user of lemmy.ml you don’t have to worry about what Lemmy.world defederates from. You’ll still see Lemmy.World content and lemmy.ml will pull directly from other instances on its own

      • hydrospanner@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        That’s not what they asked though.

        The question wasn’t that self-centered, it was asking if a user from an instance that defederated from another instance could still access content from the defederated instance through a direct manual subscription.

  • Chickenstalker@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    No, no, no. Clearly Rammy needs the enlightened guidance of Dot World. We must anschluss Rammy into the Greater Dot World.

  • Zeroxxx@lemm.ee
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    1 year ago

    So much drama I see on lemmy in one month than reddit in 10 years.