Both your comments are fascinating but I’m not sure what then was Jesus trying to say when speaking about the seeds? In most of His actions Jesus speaks out against the empires of man, how does this lend into that narrative?
Full disclosure: I consider myself an original Christian, I believe the good news(gospel) is that when Jesus returns He will establish a fair, equitable, and just society here on earth, resurrect everyone then invite them to participate.
Based on your disclosure, you are concerned with the cannonical depiction of Jesus. In which case what he was allegedly discussing with these two seeds parables were the growth of faith.
But as can be seen from 2 Cor 11, before the gospels are written there are other versions of Jesus floating around, and a number of the topics Paul writes about to Corinth in 1 Cor overlap with the group who thought Jesus was effectively citing Lucretius in his seed parables. You can even see that in 1 Cor 15 Paul refers to sown seeds in the context of the human body where he also talks about a first physical man vs a second spiritual man. It’s only in 2 Cor that we see Paul talk about sown seeds relating to proselytizing.
This other extra-canonical group with ideas overlapping with early Corinth and their “other version of Jesus” had a very different eschatology from cannonical Christianity, and in their case they explained these parables as effectively relating to Greek atomism, but with the specific language of Lucretius. In fact, the apocryphal text they were following is filled with sayings of a Jesus very concerned with addressing the philosophical points of Leucretius in a rebuttal of the Epicurean belief there was nothing after death.
Essentially, there were at least two versions of Jesus in antiquity. One that was talking about evolution and matter being made of indivisible parts, and one that was not saying anything about this. The one that was canonized and a third of the world believes in today was the latter one, but personally I find the former a bit more astonishing coming from an age where these ideas were fringe and unconformable concepts but is now being read in an age where they are largely recognized as facts.
It actually reminds me of the structure of the third seed parable. That in the earlier age when they couldn’t tell what ideas were wheat and which ideas were weeds it would have been better to have waited preserving both until such a time it was clear which ideas were wheat and which were weeds. But instead the church perhaps prematurely labeled this other tradition as weeds, it was banned on penalty of death to even possess, and we only know of it today from works buried and lost for millennia and only recently rediscovered.
(This too was an idea in Lucretius - that it would be a mistake to throw out explanations for things before knowing for sure what was correct.)
To the last point ironically I believe the main Christian faith to be the weeds in that parable.
Thank you for explaining that, ive been reading de rerum Natura to get a better understanding of what you’ve said but I’ve not made it very far, got distracted after reading up to line 100.
I also will be rereading your comments as this has helped me get a better understanding of your original comments, as I think i overlooked a few key words based off what you’ve said here.
Thank you for explaining that, ive been reading de rerum Natura to get a better understanding of what you’ve said but I’ve not made it very far, got distracted after reading up to line 100.
I think it’s a great read and very eye opening about just how advanced some ideas in antiquity were, but it can be either an insurmountable read or an enjoyable one depending on the translation.
It’s much more digestible than the older translations with stilted language and does a great job in modernizing the poetic aspects for an English audience.
Both your comments are fascinating but I’m not sure what then was Jesus trying to say when speaking about the seeds? In most of His actions Jesus speaks out against the empires of man, how does this lend into that narrative?
Full disclosure: I consider myself an original Christian, I believe the good news(gospel) is that when Jesus returns He will establish a fair, equitable, and just society here on earth, resurrect everyone then invite them to participate.
It kind of depends on which Jesus.
Based on your disclosure, you are concerned with the cannonical depiction of Jesus. In which case what he was allegedly discussing with these two seeds parables were the growth of faith.
But as can be seen from 2 Cor 11, before the gospels are written there are other versions of Jesus floating around, and a number of the topics Paul writes about to Corinth in 1 Cor overlap with the group who thought Jesus was effectively citing Lucretius in his seed parables. You can even see that in 1 Cor 15 Paul refers to sown seeds in the context of the human body where he also talks about a first physical man vs a second spiritual man. It’s only in 2 Cor that we see Paul talk about sown seeds relating to proselytizing.
This other extra-canonical group with ideas overlapping with early Corinth and their “other version of Jesus” had a very different eschatology from cannonical Christianity, and in their case they explained these parables as effectively relating to Greek atomism, but with the specific language of Lucretius. In fact, the apocryphal text they were following is filled with sayings of a Jesus very concerned with addressing the philosophical points of Leucretius in a rebuttal of the Epicurean belief there was nothing after death.
Essentially, there were at least two versions of Jesus in antiquity. One that was talking about evolution and matter being made of indivisible parts, and one that was not saying anything about this. The one that was canonized and a third of the world believes in today was the latter one, but personally I find the former a bit more astonishing coming from an age where these ideas were fringe and unconformable concepts but is now being read in an age where they are largely recognized as facts.
It actually reminds me of the structure of the third seed parable. That in the earlier age when they couldn’t tell what ideas were wheat and which ideas were weeds it would have been better to have waited preserving both until such a time it was clear which ideas were wheat and which were weeds. But instead the church perhaps prematurely labeled this other tradition as weeds, it was banned on penalty of death to even possess, and we only know of it today from works buried and lost for millennia and only recently rediscovered.
(This too was an idea in Lucretius - that it would be a mistake to throw out explanations for things before knowing for sure what was correct.)
To the last point ironically I believe the main Christian faith to be the weeds in that parable.
Thank you for explaining that, ive been reading de rerum Natura to get a better understanding of what you’ve said but I’ve not made it very far, got distracted after reading up to line 100.
I also will be rereading your comments as this has helped me get a better understanding of your original comments, as I think i overlooked a few key words based off what you’ve said here.
I think it’s a great read and very eye opening about just how advanced some ideas in antiquity were, but it can be either an insurmountable read or an enjoyable one depending on the translation.
I’d recommend this translation: https://www.amazon.com/Nature-Things-Penguin-Classics/dp/0140447962
It’s much more digestible than the older translations with stilted language and does a great job in modernizing the poetic aspects for an English audience.