• Aryuproudomenowdaddy [comrade/them]@hexbear.net
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    48
    ·
    1 year ago

    In addition, Western officials say the slow progress has exposed the difficulty of transforming Ukrainian forces into combined mechanized fighting units, sometimes with as few as eight weeks of training on western-supplied tanks and other new weapons systems.

    I’m not well versed in military training but eight weeks seems like an incredibly short time?

    • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆@lemmygrad.mlOP
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      47
      arrow-down
      5
      ·
      1 year ago

      They’re basically kidnapping people off the street and throwing them into combat as cannon fodder. Any regime that would do this to their own people is absolutely deplorable. Western values on full display here.

      • zephyrvs@lemmy.ml
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        30
        ·
        1 year ago

        They’re even collecting people with severe mental and bodily disabilities by now but I guess for most that’s “just Russian propaganda talking points” despite the many videos circulating.

      • Addfwyn@lemmygrad.ml
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        31
        arrow-down
        1
        ·
        1 year ago

        Conscription in the framework of modern warframe makes increasingly little sense to me. It’s always been a pretty terrible thing, but one could argue that throwing a pike in the hands of a farmer and pointing them at the enemy had some degree of success. There was definitely a period of history where having more warm bodies than the other side was extremely important.

        These days, so much of warfare is conducted without even seeing your enemy, I am not sure how much it accomplishes. Having one more guy on the front lines to get hit by a mortar doesn’t do much, and you probably aren’t putting conscripts on roles like drone operator or artillery from my understanding. Having trained soldiers seems increasingly more important than having more soldiers.

        It doesn’t matter how much money you spend on giving fancy gear to your military if the military is comprised of civilians who have no idea how to use them.

      • WageSlave@lemmygrad.ml
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        2
        arrow-down
        15
        ·
        1 year ago

        Conscription and full mobilization in wartime is not really a western thing though and not really the same as kidnapping. This coming from the point of someone hating the idea of even having a military, narrowly evading conscription myself a few years ago. If you do have some other sources for your claim I would be happy to take a look at them.

          • WageSlave@lemmygrad.ml
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            2
            arrow-down
            19
            ·
            1 year ago

            Literally kidnapping means

            to steal, carry off, or abduct by force or fraud, especially for use as a hostage or to extract ransom

            making the usage of it in terms of illegal mobilization seem a bit disingenuous. Not to say that is not problematic, but my main point was that illegal detention of people for use as soldiers in war is hardly unique to western countries nor Ukraine in this conflict. You, and the article, can easily make this point without misrepresenting the facts.

            • ShimmeringKoi [comrade/them]@hexbear.net
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              17
              ·
              edit-2
              1 year ago

              to steal, carry off, or abduct by force or fraud

              When you show up as a representative of the military to steal someone from their life and throw them into a meat grinder, they don’t come with you because they’re super stoked to die. They come with you because if they don’t, the threat is implicit.

              • WageSlave@lemmygrad.ml
                link
                fedilink
                arrow-up
                2
                arrow-down
                9
                ·
                1 year ago

                Sure, but you can’t ignore the other half of the definition. It is the same with wrongful incarceration: checks some of the boxes but is not really kidnapping. Still the main point is also ignored regarding the uniqueness of the situation: It is not a special case by any means.

                • ShimmeringKoi [comrade/them]@hexbear.net
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  8
                  arrow-down
                  1
                  ·
                  1 year ago

                  the other half of the definition

                  There is no other half of the definition, because there is no “and”. It doesn’t say to steal, carry off, and abduct by force and fraud. I don’t really see any justification to say this isn’t kidnapping, a guy walking up to you at random, unexpectedly, and then using the threat of physical or carceral force to abduct you to the front lines of a doomed war. I would say why split hairs here, but tbh I don’t even understand what hair you’re trying to split

            • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆@lemmygrad.mlOP
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              17
              arrow-down
              1
              ·
              1 year ago

              Physically abducting people against their will is literally what they’re doing right now. The only one misrepresenting facts here is you.

              • WageSlave@lemmygrad.ml
                link
                fedilink
                arrow-up
                1
                arrow-down
                12
                ·
                1 year ago

                Sorry man, but we both know there is a distance between “kidnapping people off the street” and illegal procedure in the procurement of soldiers. The martial law, with grounds in the Ukrainian constitution, allows pretty much for conscripting any male within age 18 to 60 something. That the process is not done in due order is concerning, but also to some degree understandable given the circumstances. Do I think they should even be allowed to conscript just about anyone, of course not, but that doesn’t make talking about what is actually going on fair game and what you are really saying true. As an addendum I want to say that something being founded in law or not doesn’t make it morally right or wrong. Hence the problem is not the distribution of forms nor the method of extracting unwillful populace for war (which is what the article mentions and uses as grounds for it claims of kidnapping), but the almost unbounded conscription itself. This is also why war is terrible, allowing for situations like this, and none should be happy for using Ukrainians or Russians for fighting the West nor anybody else.

                • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆@lemmygrad.mlOP
                  link
                  fedilink
                  arrow-up
                  7
                  arrow-down
                  1
                  ·
                  1 year ago

                  There are literal videos of Ukrainians abducting people off the street kicking and screaming. These aren’t hard to find. The fact that you just keep pretending this isn’t happening shows an incredible amount of intellectual dishonesty on your part.

    • Marxine@lemmy.ml
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      29
      ·
      1 year ago

      It is, but NATO is only used to fight poorer 3rd world countries where “random bullshit go” is a strategy that can actually work if you throw enough money at it.

      • true, but the main reason for such a short training period is the Ukrainian forces are taking on casualties at a rate that is difficult to replace. even now, as Ukrainian forces advance slowly (100 meters per day) while facing minimal Russian resistance (Russian forces are conducting a withdrawal- ceding ground while harrying the attackers as much as possible), Ukraine casualties are 700 per day. casualties were much worse at the beginning of the conflict. they are taking whatever recruits they can get, teaching them enough to operate military equipment and not kill themselves/friendlies, and throwing them in the meat grinder

    • Shrike502@lemmygrad.ml
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      19
      arrow-down
      1
      ·
      1 year ago

      transforming Ukrainian forces into combined mechanized fighting units

      Mechanized units are literally the “Soviet tactics” that pentagon and the journos keep screeching about

    • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆@lemmygrad.mlOP
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      4
      arrow-down
      2
      ·
      1 year ago

      The worst part about the war from US perspective is that it’s exposing their weapons as being garbage, this might actually hurt sales. And what could possibly be worse.