Often the subject of disagreement, Voyager is talked about poorly by some and praised by others. Seeing plenty of posts about it here. Well ya know - I think Voyager is underrated.
That show took risks. They ran some stories that were just risky in terms of writing and production - sometimes it was a hit, sometimes a stinker. That’s why it has some amazing episodes and some really really stupid ones, because they were willing to take a chance on something uncertain. And I respect that, too many shows these days feel like the same recycled crap because television has become so risk-averse and they’re not willing to take a chance on something that might turn out dumb.
So we got ones like the infamous warp 10 episode, and those are remembered as cases where the show got really dumb. But as an example, Seven of Nine could’ve completely bombed that show. Yes it looked like they were bringing on a bimbo for sex appeal, and they absolutely could’ve went that route with her. Fans might’ve hated the change no matter what. I mean, that’s a big deal, losing a main character and adding a new one - shows don’t always survive that.
Also there are things I notice from a production standpoint. From reading about the making of TNG, one thing I remember is them talking about never wanting to damage the costumes or get them dirty, or damage the set. That increases their production costs, cheaper to just not do that.
But Voyager does this all the time. Uniforms are always getting burned and torn, Neelix spills things on his shirt, the bridge is shown being blown up or completely transformed. All the times they have smoke inside there, there’s something with water, parts are broken off - that’s something they had to clean up for the next episode. If they show burn marks on the captain’s chair, that means they’ll have to be cleaned or the whole prop replaced, at the risk of it not being identical or impossible to fix.
So the point is - respect for taking those risks. Didn’t always land, but plenty of them did.
@catshit_dogfart Voyager was my main Trek when I was younger and will always be my favourite. Janeway was awesome, and it’s location in the Delta quadrant, far from Starfleet, made for some unique story opportunities.
When Seven was introduced, I was already bitter about the move Sliders made to remove a beloved character and bring on a hot woman, so I was really upset that Voyager did the same. But grew to love the character over time.
Voyager was fantastic & made me a Trek fan.
I’m still really sad that Kes was written off. Got no problem with Seven, but Kes was a good character on her own.
But, Neelix was pretty crap until Kes was removed from the show. Without her to be constantly jealous of, Neelix finally started to be useful and interesting.
I agree 100%, his spat with Tom was annoying, I liked him better once she was out of the picture.
I think the character of Kes was very poorly written. It limited the acting range of Jennifer Lien, which is only really given a chance to shine in the episode Warlord.
In my view, having rewatched Voyager again decades after first run, the show not only took successful risks in several episodes like the Demon duology or The Thaw, it has some ‘best ever’ episodes for employing some classic Star Trek tropes.
At the time, I suspect some fans focused on the ‘not new idea’ more than ‘did it better than’ but at this point it’s fairly clear.
For fans who came to Voyager first (including our kids), the original TOS and TNG episodes that Voyager built upon just seem weak by comparison.
More, when SNW does something similar, people are viewing these kind of episodes from the perspective of how well done within a type rather than criticizing them for reworking a trope.
A feel like that Ronald D. Moore rant that came out after he left the show really damaged the perception of the show in many fan circles. This damage getting even worse when Moore went on to create BSG which is some spectacular television.
Many of the continuity/‘reset button’ complaints seem to stem from it and today even Moore admits that he was being unreasonably harsh on the show. His issue was with Brannon Braga and his own problems taking instruction/being led by somebody he’s had creative clashes with who used to just be a colleague.
But Voyager could not and never would be BSG. The Federation is far more advanced than the colonies were as a prime sticking point. Are we really going to see the ship get damage over the course of the series as though replicators aren’t onboard?
Did Voyager play it safe in some areas? Sure. But it was a network tent pole for UPN. Much of the aspects of DS9 that people love wouldn’t exist without Voyager being the ‘star’ at the time at taking the networks attention. Not to mention that DS9 was as bad for, if not worse at reset buttons - remember that pylon that got blown up and was just fine the next ep? Remember how they blew up the Defiant and just went ‘lol here’s a new one with different carpet’ for the finale?
That was just the reality of TV at the time. CG got significantly cheaper in the years after they both went off air - as evidenced even within Trek with the persistent damage in Enterprises third season.
I’m also really glad that you mentioned Seven and how brave they were with a number of those stories. There was clearly network pressure for ‘T&A’ and they could have gone the very easy (TNG) route of having a character in a skin tight outfit that rotates through love interest and sexual assault plots for focus episodes but otherwise just stands around stating the obvious (Sorry Troi), instead they introduced an attractive character in a catsuit and immediately made her but heads with the Captain, run around like a maverick and in the process gave us one of Treks very best character development arcs (somewhat at the expense of other members of the cast mind).
We also have to remember that they wanted (and needed due to VHS recorders being unreliable at best) a show where you could kiss a few episodes but still tune in and have a good time. I think, perhaps better than any other Trek Voyager succeeded in its aims in this regard.
I really enjoyed Voyager and still watch episodes regularly. For me it was the idea of being so far from the “known universe” and what that would be like.
Tuvix.
I do agree with you, had no idea people disliked Voyager whe. I first watched it, and I overall enjoyed it very much. Yeah, the show has a bunch of out there episodes, but they tried new things and all great star trek shows have their good share of wacky episodes.
It’s not even like it doesn’t have good criticism points, Kes character was very mishandled and her relationship with Neelix was terrible, he becomes a 1000% more likable once she’s gone, and Chakotay whole botched native American heritage disaster… (Which granted, they tried, they just sucked at finding a specialist)
And Tuvix is one of the topics that guarantees a philosophical discussion in any star trek group I’m in without fail. I pretty firmly hate Tuvix, but that’s power.
What are episodes people think are dumb?
I think the last seasons the writers really had some fun and the actors must have loved those.
Let’s see, I don’t remember episode titles but from memory:
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The one where Harry Kim is having visions of a planet full of hot desperate women who want him for a mate
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The one where they’re on a prison colony and Chakotay has to fight The Rock. And this was before Dwayne Johnson’s film career really took off.
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The one where they go Warp 10 and devolve into lizard creatures. The lizard versions of Tom Paris and Janeway have lizard babies.
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The one where Janeway falls in love with a holodeck character
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The one where Kes comes back and she’s evil
It’s a real mixed bag. Sometimes you swing and you miss, and I respect them for even giving these stories a chance. Also I rather like Tuvix.
C’mon Fair Haven gave us the line ‘Delete the wife’, it deserves awards for that alone
With Threshold I always was mildly impressed with how they made a point that evolution doesn’t necessarily mean that a species will become super advanced somehow. That they evolved “in-place” instead of over generations is still a pretty bonkers misunderstanding of evolution that they always fall for, but I guess watching them turn into lizards over the next several decades probably wouldn’t make the best TV lol
I agree. Honestly Threshold was a decent episode up until that ending. But the ending… was just too much.
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