Framework as in the laptop company, just for clarity. https://frame.work/. For those unaware, the idea is that these are laptops built with a high degree of modularity so that you can replace far more than a single stick of SODIMM with the goal of even upgrading your CPU and mainboard a few years down the line.
Also, Framework is partially owned by Linus Sebastien (Linus Tech Tips) so their marketing is “off the chain” as it were.
Over the past few years I have tried to convince myself to get one a few times. But… the pricing never made sense. As a quick exercise:
- A DIY (so no Windows key) 13th gen intel starts at 850 USD https://frame.work/products/laptop-diy-13-gen-intel?q=processor
- The associated mainboard+cpu is 450 USD https://frame.work/products/mainboard-13th-gen-intel-core?v=FRANGJCP04
- A Dell Inspiron 16 inch (since the samsung with the same specs was on a ridiculous sale and I am trying to prove a point) is 900 USD (on sale for 600) with a windows key https://www.bestbuy.com/site/dell-inspiron-16-0-2-in-1-touch-laptop-13th-gen-intel-evo-i5-8gb-memory-512gb-ssd-platinum-silver/6539908.p?skuId=6539908
850+450=1300. So you really aren’t even saving that much unless you actively refuse to shop a sale at Best Buy or pretend you are still a student when they ask. And that assumes you ONLY want to upgrade your mobo+cpu and nothing else.
But I still like the fundamental concept (of the marketing…) of upgradable laptops.
But then I finally watched the Tested teardown video with Norm (the heart and soul of Tested and has been since the Whiskey days) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drxOpMsr6sM and… the general takeaways were that there is a LOT of cool tech involved in the modularity but that the vast majority of people would never mess around with it after assembling their laptop for the first time. Also, Adam Savage has stickers.
Combine that with all of their modular ports being 20 dollar USB-C dongles with single ports and… this feels a lot more like the kind of bullshit Apple does than anything else. Why use the USB C dongle/hub that works with all your other devices when you can buy a 20 dollar HDMI port instead?
Same with stuff like the (honestly insanely cool) modular keyboard layout. Basically, the keyboard, touchpad, etc are all panels that can be popped off and swapped around. So if you want stupid LEDs, you can have them. If you want an offset keyboard, you can do it. If you want a 10key numpad, you can do that too. It is a genuinely awesome idea but… it is a lot of engineering for something that people will use maybe twice in their ownership of the laptop (once to configure, one to replace when they spill their drink). Same with things like being able to swap out the back module to have a GPU when you want it. You do that once.
Which… makes it feel like people are paying a premium for easier assembly at a factory.
And as for the upgradable hardware? Storage and ram are on point and they should be praised. But you are basically buying whole new modules for the CPU/mobo and the GPU and so forth. Which… is kind of necessary because it is so rare to find an actual mobile sized GPU in a consumer available format. But it continues to just feel like you are buying proprietary parts from a company (Framework want other companies to make parts but I have not looked through the terms and licensing).
But also? A friend pointed out: How many sticks of DDR3 ram do you still have? Because I know that I have a big bin of computer parts “just in case” that I will never use but also can’t be bothered to throw away because maybe I will. And that is what these modular parts become. You COULD recycle your old mainboad+cpu… or you can keep it in case you want to do a project that you never will and that would be perfectly fine with a raspberry pi or a cheap nuc anyway.
Contrast that with wiping your laptop and giving it to a nephew or dropping it off in an e-waste bin (and many stores offer incentives to do that).
All of which combines to… this feels a lot like the kind of “poison pill” compliance that Apple is doing on the right to repair side. They make a big deal about how they allow people to repair their shit now (that various governments threatened action…). But they tightly control the parts and rent out the hardware AND price it to strongly discourage hobbyists to the point that it mostly feels like they are just squeezing out the third party shops even more.
I’m torn because I do think the stated ethos is awesome. I… also have had no issues replacing my storage or upgrading my ram in my last few laptops but I tend to not get “flagship” models so there is that. But it is increasingly feeling like Framework is just building up IP to sell to manufacturers while having a net negative on the amount of e-waste in the laptop space.
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I think the Framework laptop is absolutely good for the industry. Many of your points attempt to diminish or omit the pros and emphasize the cons of things.
E.g. ports. You don’t notice that the Framework ports also work with everything else that a dongle does. You also don’t notice that having modular ports provides extraordinary durability. Ports are often a thing that gets destroyed on laptops. Repairing often means a main board replacement. With a Framework, it’s $20 port card and 10 seconds of work.
You compare their parts situation to Apple’s by omitting the important fact that Framework’s parts, especially the wear and tear ones like coolers, keyboards and batteries are dirt cheap and easily available for purchase. I don’t know about you but I’ve replaced many ThinkPad batteries over the years and finding genuine ones is often a pain and they’re invariably very expensive. 2-3x more expensive than what a Framework battery is.
Personally, I’ve already seen the benefits of the Framework model. I have a Framework 13 which I nastily dropped and bent as a result. One bottom cover order and replacement later it’s as good as new.
I think the Framework model is absolutely positive for the industry, so long as it keeps working. If they go out of business in a year, or get sold to some profit maximizing group that disrupts the model, then yeah, at that point it may become a negative. In my opinion this is the risk for this company and this product model.
He also missed the marketplace that Framework is setting up for refurbished/used components as well as the discounted items they sell that failed QC due to visual defects like nicks and scratches. They very much are in this for the long haul and want to as much as possible try to create a desktop like market where you can assemble a “discount” machine out of older or used hardware. It’s just that it’s brand new so there isn’t much or any older or used hardware yet.
For other examples of how they’re very much not like Apple, they’ve made the form factor and measurements of their port modules public and encouraged individuals and 3rd parties to produce their own modules. Unlike Apple there’s nothing proprietary there, it’s literally a USB-C plug. They’ve also talked about trying to get the motherboard form-factor made into a standard like mini-ITX so that 3rd parties could also make Framework compatible motherboards or cases. I don’t know where that process actually landed, but the fact that it was even considered is huge.
I guess I was warmer on the “ports” when I thought it was some proprietary or straight up PCI-E connector. Instead of just a USB-C port.
Which I guess gets down to how solid those “rails” are for the 20 dollar dongles. Because if you break the inner C port, you are in the exact same mess.
Which… gets back to it being hard to really figure out how much of this is “teething issues” versus “this is secretly kind of shitty?”. Because replaceable ports is GOOD. I would even be cool with the underlying USB-C as the interface port. But “I need to have an hdmi port on my laptop and will spend 20 dollars on a proprietary dongle” is stupid. As opposed to "I need to have an hdmi port on my latpop. This also works on my tablet and my steam deck and any other laptop because it is a 20 dollar dongle that has an HDMI port, 2 USB A ports, and does power pass through. Which, again, feels like Apple shittiness while also increasing e-waste.
Which I think gets to where I am on a lot of the framework stuff. It sounds awesome but the implementation is REALLY straddling that line of “is this a teething issue or is this actually worse than what we currently have?”
The dongles are not proprietary. I’ve literally used my USB A module as a USB C to USB A adapter on a different laptop. The dimensions of the module are publicly available, nothing is stopping anyone from making their own. Before Framework offered their own Ethernet port module someone in the community actually manufactured their own using the 3D printing files that Framework provided.
“Proprietary” might be a bit too strong of a word. But considering the tight tolerances of the framework dongles (to minimize damage), I would actually be more worried about plugging that into a different device and damaging the ports that way.
And I guess I still just think of that as a “trap”. Because the answer should not be “buy all your special dongles to customize your laptop” and more “usb c is fucking magic. Just get one dongle that gives all legacy ports you need”. Like, I am still INCREDIBLY wary of the data transfer so I have an old anker (irony) 20 buck dongle that I use on travel. But my old company made it a point to have a dedicated usb c dongle in every conference room and it was actually REALLY nice because you basically just plugged in your laptop and had a nice double display setup, keyboard, and mouse for every single meeting.
The point of the ports is so you don’t need to have an external dongle. They arnt really there to hot swap but provide the right port always there so they shrewdly shouldn’t wear out and usb is more than fast enough for almost any port type now. I would much rather have a laptop with an Ethernet port and a full size HDMI than one with a single USB c that forces me to also pack a chonky dongle. Would rather just pack the cables .
If you’re already packing the cables…
And yeah. Fuck single usb c laptops. It is awesome that the 16 has 6 (?) usb c ports. I would probably say my sweet spot is closer to 4 but I am not going to complain.
My point is more: Its a “feature” that is encouraging people to spend money to reduce the capabilities of their laptops, in a weird way. It creates more e-waste by having dongles that you generally wouldn’t want to use with any other device (RIP my old thinkpad usb port that got fucked up by needing a wifi dongle in it 24/7…) and ignores the actual solution that has existed for years and works REALLY well.
Because if you break the inner C port, you are in the exact same mess.
Yes. But they also try to make sure that never happens. Cards are slotted and locked in solid (see new 16“ teardown by ifixit, the cards fly out after unlocking, needs some force). If you break it, they give repair shops full board view (under nda, because of intel) so can fix the port for cheap.
"I need to have an hdmi port on my latpop. This also works on my tablet and my steam deck and any other laptop because it is a 20 dollar dongle that has an HDMI port, 2 USB A ports, and does power pass through.
That is just a framework expansion card. Except 2 usb a port because physically does not fit.
You can also not use their cards, get it with 4 usb c and buy dongles for everything. This is choice you might not have on other laptops.
Seconding, the mounting rails are very strong. I have had the laptop fall from the desk with the ethernet card installed and a cable plugged in it. The ethernet cable, card and the card mounting mechanism took all the force from the fall. Nothing cracked, nothing detached, didn’t even get a network disconnect. They’re that strong.
I mean, with modularity you can pick your needs and make that choice yourself. Some people are willing to carry an extra dongle, and some prefer having the ports sit flush and nothing extra that they don’t need, up to you.
I built my own module that fits in they’re short perfectly, because they published all the specs.
Cost just a few bucks and it made my laptop do exactly what I wanted without anything extra sticking out the sides.
You don’t have to buy an extra mainboard. The $850 laptop package includes it.
The whole post is so dumb (especially this one) I cringed while reading it.
He’s talking about a feature, admits its good, and then says most people won’t use it much. How is other people using a feature a considering when buying a product?
Giving them a small investment is not an ownership stake. And hardly groundbreaking at 200k.
They’re providing a product in a niche. Good for them.
You’re not paying a premium for the design/modularity, you’re paying a premium because they’re a new innovative smaller company. If they get really big, they’ll become cheaper.
Also, buying an expensive Framework, then a cheap upgrade, is less expensive than buying two reasonably priced machines.
framework laptops have been great for me. accidentally stepped on my laptop getting out of bed and completely broke the screen. got a replacement one shipped to me in a week and replaced it myself in about 10 minutes!
Reasons I bought one and will again: repairability, build quality, supporting a cool concept financially.
I don’t especially expect to upgrade much before having to replace the whole chassis. Except maybe memory or storage which isn’t that hard with most laptops (though it’s way easier with Framework).
You are doing some pretty serious mental gymnastics to find issues with Framework. Most parts are open sourced and easy to get ahold of. The parts availability and ease of replacement are lightyears beyond what most companies do. The replaceable ports are not restricted to buying theirs, many people have dedigned and built their own cheap ports and open sourced them. Try buying a laptop from any other manufacturer, and attempt to replace anything. You will be in a world of struggle. You can almost build an entire Framework directly from their marketplace. Oh, ans having stakes in a company does not mean ownership.
As a current owner of a Framework laptop, the easy repairability is so important. I have already fixed 3 small issues myself, not only is that good for the environment it’s also good for my wallet
Out of morbid curiosity, what were those issues?
Not OP, but I installed the Wifi card that I forgot to buy and reseated the webcam when it wasn’t detected initially.
Issue with the storage expansion card overheating, slightly out of position touchpad that had clicking issues, and a bent USB-A expansion card
was the storage expansion card a bad unit? and did framework replace the broken items? thanks for the reply btw :)
There was a manufacturing issue with the first batch of storage expansion cards, there was no need to replace the items so they just published repair guides
It won’t make sense in the first purchase. It will start to make sense when you want to upgrade and don’t have to throw the whole thing out or when something breaks and you can easily and cheaply fix it.
“don’t have to throw the whole thing out” is what convinced me to get one. I’m not going to make a big difference on my own, but minimizing what I recycle, throw out, or chuck in the basement is still worthwhile.
I don’t think you need to be that worried about “tightening control to the likes of Apple”. Given that they encourage people build their own cases for the motherboards, design and 3d print custom expansion cards, I won’t be surprised if some 3rd party designs a whole new motherboard to fit in their chassis since the size is supposed to be standard. Iirc, Louis Rossman did do a video on them in the past that confirmed Framework would be willing to work with repair shops to provide them the schematics that they are able to provide to aid in repairs.
On the other topic, I agree that most people won’t be needing to swap out parts that often. But that’s also the beauty of modularity though. You buy the parts that you actually need and nothing else. Framework can sell the exact same chassis that still fills the need for different people who have different needs for ports. And since they’re supposed to reuse the same chassis down the line, you are almost guaranteed to have parts still be available multiple generations after, unlike modern laptops where parts would be much harder to find after a couple of hardware refreshes.
Framework is still a niche product, thus they will definitely still be much more expensive than regular laptops due to scale and whatnot. Most people would be better off buying those tbh. But if you care about upgradability or repairability multiple years after purchase, I think they’re still worth considering.
I mean, “down the line” is very much a function of “will Framework still be around when I am ready to upgrade?”. And we have plenty of examples of functionality implying form and breaking backwards compatibility. Often for good reasons. Like, there was never a strong promise but it is worth looking at even the OLED Steam Deck and how the tweaked internals are almost universally praised but… yeah.
I dunno, I think your last para kind of sums up my increasing thoughts on this. It is really feeling less like a paradigm shift or even something particularly sustainable and more like something marketed at “enthusiasts” (like those modular phones). And I’ve seen a lot of those over the years and they… exist until they don’t. And it very much leads to a “baby with the bath water” scenario where people view all “modular” phones or whatever as being a scam rather than acknowledging that stuff like swappable camera lenses/nterfaces is REALLY cool and something that would benefit all phones. Even if a swappable display is very niche.
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I’m old enough to have been down this road a dozen times, and it has always ended in tears. The ones I bought into either came into the market too early, too beta, or too late, or just weren’t able to see it through or abandoned hope mid journey.
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I think it has a great chance to be a great thing.
Why? The magic isn’t the Framework Ecosystem. It’s one thing, un-crapified modularity. The reason most of us can afford to keep a car working isn’t because of the great Mazda or Ford ecosystem of parts. Its because the un-crapified modularity of those parts. The designs are “open” (they’re not in the libré sense, but they are simple re-make or recreate ). That is why most of us can keep our cars going. If I need a headlight, or an alternator, or a throttle-position sensor, not only does Mazda make/have the part, there are a dozen other people who make the part. I not only get a replacement, but I get choices in a open market in a range of prices and qualities.
I imagine in 2032, even if the company Framework has disappeared, there will be a lady in New Jersey making inexpensive replacement modules. That is a ‘good thing’.
Its no accident everything on an Apple device is soldered down. If they made cars they’d grind down all the bolt heads and embed the engine in epoxy. It’s their ethos. If my macbook ssd goes bad, all they can do for me is sell me a new one. The beauty of the Framework is that each module can be replaced. So no, the typical user is not going to completely upgrade their laptop in 8 years. (but they could) But, most will want to replace that one broken part on their otherwise perfectly good laptop. Another way to think about it, lets say I have a 10 year old car, worth $5k. To replace every part might truly cost me $35,000. But the way chance works, it’s rate to actually need to replace every part. And the parts that need replacing are usually relatively inexpensive.
Some years ago Consumer Reports Magazine had a section where they’d list the costs of all the replacement parts of a new car. Was interesting. IIRC it was about 4x the cost of the car.
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The GPU module is actually an industry standard created by… Dell, I think? So that, at least, is technically non-proprietary.
Either way, Framework has been open about specs and has encouraged a cottage industry of third party bespoke mods and modules for its laptops. I wouldn’t worry to much about that.
They are great.
I plan to get one soon. The largest value I see is in a company that cares about your right to repair and open sourcing their components so anyone can make parts easily. They also have a hardware killswitch for the camera. Also I hope to see more options for Coreboot which seems likely. If people actually care about e-waste too this seems (I haven’t looked into their manufacturing deeply) like a way to not add as much trash into the environment and not waste as much material in this age of consumerism and wastefulness. Of course the upgradeability is a welcome change to the laptop market and they have official support for some Linux distros
I think it’s a nice enough idea, and I hope it sets a reasonable baseline for what enthusiast and workstation laptops will be as the entabletification of the mainstream computing device continues, but right now it’s sort of a solution waiting for its problem. Economically, it doesn’t make much sense for one person to buy one. In an actuarial sense, it’s almost certainly better to buy something you like that’s less modular, and replace it if it breaks or stops being useful for your intended tasks. Of course if no one who wishes them well buys their computers, they won’t last long enough to be relevant.
Strictly speaking, just standardizing and providing the physical specifications ends up making their dongles more like headers on a desktop motherboard, potentially a commodity piece that anyone could replicate. Their other modular components seem to have a similar idea. It all seems elegant enough, and ready to “backscale” into a distributed niche industry if the big companies stop making powerful proprietary machines at the scale that keeps them cheap. As it stands, they sort of ARE de facto proprietary, but I guess the idea is that there will be enough enthusiasts, hardware hackers, and evangelists paying a sizeable, but not crippling, premium to keep them afloat and gain the mindshare to become a new standard (and hopefully halo brand) when people need to build laptops like they build towers now.
I think autocorrect messed up the word enshitification
