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The way I see it is if a word causes harm to people who mean no harm themselves, then we don’t need to use that word in any contexts other than historical. Just like how the use of the words ******, and ******, and my goodness even the word ********* have fallen out of use, rightfully so.
For me, offense is in the listeners mind. Words are simply words. Taking offense to such things is a personal choice. You can choose to be offended or not.
I don’t mean to imply that the victims of bullying or racism or whatever are to blame for their own offense, certainly the words being used as insults is entirely the fault of those that use them in that manner, but it does require that the terms are taken in that same context - as an insult. One term that I feel has had this treatment and been almost turned around by society is the word “gay”. It’s fallen so far out of fashion to use “gay” as a form of insult that in general use, calling someone “gay” isn’t really all that insulting. It’s more offensive to try to use that as an insult than it is precieved as an insult to the listener. Anyone trying to offend with that word is usually seen as someone who is ignorant at best. I have been the victim of bullying in my youth and I have been called gay on several occasions. I am not gay, nor any other classification of LGBTQ+; I support equal rights for everyone including and especially the LGBTQ+ community members. I’m great described as an ally of the group.
The fact is, several previously offensive terms in this same vein, have been taken back by the communities that were one offended at the use. Sometimes the term becomes endearing more than any kind of offensive. Among the African community we see this with “the N word”. Though that’s an internal community use, and not more generalized like gay has become.
I don’t think that my opinions on whether words are or should be offensive changes anything; I have no issues avoiding these problematic words to benefit my fellow humans, and make them more comfortable in what I’m trying to say. Avoiding even the implication that I’m being offensive in my terminology. I feel that restricting my use (or rather eliminating it) of certain words to benefit others, is a small price to pay to help my fellow humans. So small in fact that it goes almost completely unnoticed; and that’s fine. I don’t need nor want recognition for anything I’m doing for the benefit of others. I feel as though it’s my duty to ensure that I am correctly understood, and that no offense is taken when no offense is intended; furthermore, I never intend offense, since there’s never a good enough reason to simply disparage people whom I don’t know, and usually good reasons not to disparage people I know. So to me, even the risk of someone taking offense at something I say is far too much of a risk for me to even say the words that they will find offensive.
“So unto others as you would have them do unto you” - one of the few things I live by. I wish to be treated with respect and dignity, so I will treat others with the respect and dignity I hope that they will give me. Though this statement is most frequently referenced by religion, specifically Christian religions, I am not religious, but the statement is nevertheless valid and something I try to adhere to.
The main factor that saddens me is that my friends and fellow humans allow their emotions to be dictated by the use of these offensive terms by ignorant and uncaring people. The most important thing to me of everything I’ve said is the underlying implication that by getting angry at the use of a word by someone who doesn’t respect you enough to avoid it, gives them control over you and your emotions. The anger is justified, and I’m not going to say, nor imply its wrong to be upset, your feelings are valid; but giving someone else control over you for using a word? It seems like you’re giving bigots and assholes far too much power. They don’t deserve it and they certainly don’t deserve your attention, or time… And they certainly don’t deserve to have any control over you at all. You deserve better than that from them, and from yourself.
But, far be it for me to tell anyone how to think or how to live. I will do my best out here, and I hope that makes a difference to those around me. I hope that others do the same and collectively, we can eliminate such offense towards individuals at the mere utterance of such words, and they’ll fall from favor as “gay” already has done.
I love all of you, no matter what you believe, who you are, or any other factor that might divide us. I wish you all the very best and all the happiness in the world.
For me, offense is in the listeners mind. Words are simply words. Taking offense to such things is a personal choice. You can choose to be offended or not.
So the N-word is not offensive? Do you use it freely?
No. Obviously, as I stated later in my post, I refrain from using words that are taken as offensive in an effort to make my fellow humans more comfortable. I personally don’t have any issue with any word. I refuse to allow someone to have that much control over my emotional state by using a word.
I don’t understand why anyone would want to give someone else control over their person simply because they’re an ignorant bigot who has no issue using such a word in an offensive way.
I do my best to give all of my fellow people (friends, co-workers and even strangers) respect. At least enough respect not to stoop to simple character attacks using historically demeaning language. If I have a problem with someone, that shouldn’t imply that they are somehow less than me, they are simply the center point of the issue I’m having, and I shouldn’t resort to trying to insult them based on something as trivial as their race, culture, religion, creed, or anything else that’s so generalized.
It reminds me of the xkcd comic about double standards: in the first pane it shows two people, presumably men, both standing at a blackboard or similar doing math, and the first is saying to the second “wow, you suck at math”. In the second pane, it’s presumably a man and a woman in the exact same scenario, but in this case, the man is saying to the woman “wow, women suck at math”.
The difference is clear: in the first scenario, they’re addressing the individual, in the second, they’re referring to an entire group based on a single characteristic of that individual. That kind of broad generalization of an individual based on a single factor, whether it is race, gender, religion, etc… Is the core of the issue for me. If I have an issue with someone, or even multiple someone’s of a particular race, gender, class, etc… I make active efforts to not make judgements of all people of that particular race/gender/whatever, based on this small sample.
I’ve had friends of various races, gender identities, religions, etc, who are very rational, intelligent, good natured, etc. I’ve also known people of pretty much every class, gender, race, religion, etc, who are utterly infuriating or annoying to no end for various reasons. For me, it’s not a reflection on that race/gender/whatever, but rather a reflection on that individual. While they may be a particular gender, race, religion, etc… They do not represent every person who is in that race/religion/gender/etc. I’ve noticed there are trends in behavior among people of similar cultures… Where a culture is usually consisting of people with similar race, National origin, religion, etc, but those trends do not and cannot inform my judgement of a person. Many races, religions, etc, belong to multiple cultures, and there are many examples of people from every culture that do not have the same ideologies, religion, or even personality traits, of their root culture, so again, this does not and cannot inform my thoughts about any one individual.
While similarities exist between people of similar or the same culture, each individual is, and must be, treated as an individual because every other system of determining the treatment of an individual, either socially or personally, is incomplete at best, and wildly inaccurate at worst.
Bringing it back to the point. I have no personal issue with any word that may or may not be considered offensive, either to me or others. Taking offense is an entirely personal matter wholly existing in the mind of the listener. As a matter of respect for my fellow person, I refrain from uttering such words that may cause unintentional offense to people as a matter of respect for those people. Furthermore, I respect all individuals I interact with at least enough to not desire to cause offense, especially regarding traits they cannot otherwise change, such as national heritage, race, gender, etc.
I would not personally have any issues using words that are currently considered offensive, if the groups that could be offended by those words were to stand up and say that the word will not be taken offensively.
The N-word specifically, appears to have it’s etymology rooted in Spanish, where the word for the color black is literally “Negro”. I feel that the word is a bastardized anglo mishearing of Negro, by slave owners, back when that was a thing; and as such, it has become inexorably tied to the concept of owning people, meanwhile the dictionary defines the N-word as literally a dark-skinned person (and correctly notes that it is a contemptuous term for such a person).
Words change meaning over time, as I’m sure the N-word first appeared in the dictionary as a dark skinned slave or something equally dehumanizing. The term has already evolved to simply be a dark-skinned person (contemptuous), and may evolve further to any number of potential future definitions.
If such a time arises that the word is no longer seen as offensive to the dark-skinned community, regardless of the speaker, then I would have no problem using the term in whatever context is appropriate for the new definition. If that context is that it should never be used, as it is now, then I will never use it. Full stop.
I have to much respect for people of all races, to use terms which would demean any race.
I still don’t have a problem with it personally. I am also not a dark-skinned person. I maintain that my fellow humans should not allow the utterance of such a word to have any sway on their emotions. Don’t give someone else control over you because they don’t respect you enough that they’ll use such offensive words. Don’t give them that control. They’re worthless humans.
I would not personally have any issues using words that are currently considered offensive, if the groups that could be offended by those words were to stand up and say that the word will not be taken offensively.
Sorry… you want the intellectually disabled to explain why something you say upsets them?
You do understand the concept of intellectual disability, right?
Of course I do. These statements are more broadly applicable. Specifically in the context of that reply, I was being asked about the “N-word”.
Additionally, it’s rather judgemental of you to assume that the intellectually disabled are incapable of enough comprehension that they can understand when something has offended them.
People who fit the description of intellectual disability are wildly varied in what constitutes their disability. Sure, some of them are nonverbal, some may be in a borderline vegetative state. Those are extremes and shouldn’t imply that all people with intellectual disabilities are incapable of understanding or verbalizing their feelings.
Bluntly, if someone is so intellectually disabled that they are unable to express, in some way, shape, or form, that a statement has either offended them, or that a statement does not offend them, then I would argue that the probability that they understand the potentially offensive statement well enough to have an opinion on it, is extremely remote. Thus, their opinion, which cannot be ascertained either way, is not relevant to the discussion.
What’s amazing to me is that you seem to be trying so very hard to find flaws in my argument and get me upset or something, and yet, even as I’m writing this, and recognizing that your statements are most likely just an attempt to troll me… I am stoic and entirely calm.
Think what you will of me. I could not possibly care any less than I already do. This entire discussion has been cathartic. I rarely get to voice my opinions on such things, since those that know me already know what my opinions are on this topic; most of the general population won’t sit and listen to a reasonable argument or have a productive discussion on such “hot button” topics.
So I want to say thank you for the discussion. I truly appreciate the opportunity to re-examine the issue. So far, I have heard no compelling argument to change my outlook or opinion on this issue, and I sincerely hope that at some point someone will read this and realize that they’re giving someone power over them with words, and change how they see such offensive language. If even one person has that moment of realization, then all the effort and time I’ve spent talking about this, has been time well spent.
I hope you, and everyone who reads this, now or in the future, have a very pleasant day.
Additionally, it’s rather judgemental of you to assume that the intellectually disabled are incapable of enough comprehension that they can understand when something has offended them.
I’m not assuming that at all. You’re assuming the ones who are capable enough haven’t stood up and said to stop using that word.
The statements in context are referring to a potential future time when they say that it’s not offensive. I made no statements about what has, or has not been said currently by those groups. I only acknowledged that currently the word is considered offensive.
I recognized in my original reply that the wording of the picture in the OP is problematic. Though it carries a decent enough message, the wording would be considered offensive by today’s standards.
The way I see it is if a word causes harm to people who mean no harm themselves, then we don’t need to use that word in any contexts other than historical. Just like how the use of the words ******, and ******, and my goodness even the word ********* have fallen out of use, rightfully so.
For me, offense is in the listeners mind. Words are simply words. Taking offense to such things is a personal choice. You can choose to be offended or not.
I don’t mean to imply that the victims of bullying or racism or whatever are to blame for their own offense, certainly the words being used as insults is entirely the fault of those that use them in that manner, but it does require that the terms are taken in that same context - as an insult. One term that I feel has had this treatment and been almost turned around by society is the word “gay”. It’s fallen so far out of fashion to use “gay” as a form of insult that in general use, calling someone “gay” isn’t really all that insulting. It’s more offensive to try to use that as an insult than it is precieved as an insult to the listener. Anyone trying to offend with that word is usually seen as someone who is ignorant at best. I have been the victim of bullying in my youth and I have been called gay on several occasions. I am not gay, nor any other classification of LGBTQ+; I support equal rights for everyone including and especially the LGBTQ+ community members. I’m great described as an ally of the group.
The fact is, several previously offensive terms in this same vein, have been taken back by the communities that were one offended at the use. Sometimes the term becomes endearing more than any kind of offensive. Among the African community we see this with “the N word”. Though that’s an internal community use, and not more generalized like gay has become.
I don’t think that my opinions on whether words are or should be offensive changes anything; I have no issues avoiding these problematic words to benefit my fellow humans, and make them more comfortable in what I’m trying to say. Avoiding even the implication that I’m being offensive in my terminology. I feel that restricting my use (or rather eliminating it) of certain words to benefit others, is a small price to pay to help my fellow humans. So small in fact that it goes almost completely unnoticed; and that’s fine. I don’t need nor want recognition for anything I’m doing for the benefit of others. I feel as though it’s my duty to ensure that I am correctly understood, and that no offense is taken when no offense is intended; furthermore, I never intend offense, since there’s never a good enough reason to simply disparage people whom I don’t know, and usually good reasons not to disparage people I know. So to me, even the risk of someone taking offense at something I say is far too much of a risk for me to even say the words that they will find offensive.
“So unto others as you would have them do unto you” - one of the few things I live by. I wish to be treated with respect and dignity, so I will treat others with the respect and dignity I hope that they will give me. Though this statement is most frequently referenced by religion, specifically Christian religions, I am not religious, but the statement is nevertheless valid and something I try to adhere to.
The main factor that saddens me is that my friends and fellow humans allow their emotions to be dictated by the use of these offensive terms by ignorant and uncaring people. The most important thing to me of everything I’ve said is the underlying implication that by getting angry at the use of a word by someone who doesn’t respect you enough to avoid it, gives them control over you and your emotions. The anger is justified, and I’m not going to say, nor imply its wrong to be upset, your feelings are valid; but giving someone else control over you for using a word? It seems like you’re giving bigots and assholes far too much power. They don’t deserve it and they certainly don’t deserve your attention, or time… And they certainly don’t deserve to have any control over you at all. You deserve better than that from them, and from yourself.
But, far be it for me to tell anyone how to think or how to live. I will do my best out here, and I hope that makes a difference to those around me. I hope that others do the same and collectively, we can eliminate such offense towards individuals at the mere utterance of such words, and they’ll fall from favor as “gay” already has done.
I love all of you, no matter what you believe, who you are, or any other factor that might divide us. I wish you all the very best and all the happiness in the world.
So the N-word is not offensive? Do you use it freely?
Well, we know where you stopped reading.
Do we now?
No. Obviously, as I stated later in my post, I refrain from using words that are taken as offensive in an effort to make my fellow humans more comfortable. I personally don’t have any issue with any word. I refuse to allow someone to have that much control over my emotional state by using a word.
I don’t understand why anyone would want to give someone else control over their person simply because they’re an ignorant bigot who has no issue using such a word in an offensive way.
I do my best to give all of my fellow people (friends, co-workers and even strangers) respect. At least enough respect not to stoop to simple character attacks using historically demeaning language. If I have a problem with someone, that shouldn’t imply that they are somehow less than me, they are simply the center point of the issue I’m having, and I shouldn’t resort to trying to insult them based on something as trivial as their race, culture, religion, creed, or anything else that’s so generalized.
It reminds me of the xkcd comic about double standards: in the first pane it shows two people, presumably men, both standing at a blackboard or similar doing math, and the first is saying to the second “wow, you suck at math”. In the second pane, it’s presumably a man and a woman in the exact same scenario, but in this case, the man is saying to the woman “wow, women suck at math”.
The difference is clear: in the first scenario, they’re addressing the individual, in the second, they’re referring to an entire group based on a single characteristic of that individual. That kind of broad generalization of an individual based on a single factor, whether it is race, gender, religion, etc… Is the core of the issue for me. If I have an issue with someone, or even multiple someone’s of a particular race, gender, class, etc… I make active efforts to not make judgements of all people of that particular race/gender/whatever, based on this small sample.
I’ve had friends of various races, gender identities, religions, etc, who are very rational, intelligent, good natured, etc. I’ve also known people of pretty much every class, gender, race, religion, etc, who are utterly infuriating or annoying to no end for various reasons. For me, it’s not a reflection on that race/gender/whatever, but rather a reflection on that individual. While they may be a particular gender, race, religion, etc… They do not represent every person who is in that race/religion/gender/etc. I’ve noticed there are trends in behavior among people of similar cultures… Where a culture is usually consisting of people with similar race, National origin, religion, etc, but those trends do not and cannot inform my judgement of a person. Many races, religions, etc, belong to multiple cultures, and there are many examples of people from every culture that do not have the same ideologies, religion, or even personality traits, of their root culture, so again, this does not and cannot inform my thoughts about any one individual.
While similarities exist between people of similar or the same culture, each individual is, and must be, treated as an individual because every other system of determining the treatment of an individual, either socially or personally, is incomplete at best, and wildly inaccurate at worst.
Bringing it back to the point. I have no personal issue with any word that may or may not be considered offensive, either to me or others. Taking offense is an entirely personal matter wholly existing in the mind of the listener. As a matter of respect for my fellow person, I refrain from uttering such words that may cause unintentional offense to people as a matter of respect for those people. Furthermore, I respect all individuals I interact with at least enough to not desire to cause offense, especially regarding traits they cannot otherwise change, such as national heritage, race, gender, etc.
I would not personally have any issues using words that are currently considered offensive, if the groups that could be offended by those words were to stand up and say that the word will not be taken offensively.
The N-word specifically, appears to have it’s etymology rooted in Spanish, where the word for the color black is literally “Negro”. I feel that the word is a bastardized anglo mishearing of Negro, by slave owners, back when that was a thing; and as such, it has become inexorably tied to the concept of owning people, meanwhile the dictionary defines the N-word as literally a dark-skinned person (and correctly notes that it is a contemptuous term for such a person).
Words change meaning over time, as I’m sure the N-word first appeared in the dictionary as a dark skinned slave or something equally dehumanizing. The term has already evolved to simply be a dark-skinned person (contemptuous), and may evolve further to any number of potential future definitions.
If such a time arises that the word is no longer seen as offensive to the dark-skinned community, regardless of the speaker, then I would have no problem using the term in whatever context is appropriate for the new definition. If that context is that it should never be used, as it is now, then I will never use it. Full stop.
I have to much respect for people of all races, to use terms which would demean any race.
I still don’t have a problem with it personally. I am also not a dark-skinned person. I maintain that my fellow humans should not allow the utterance of such a word to have any sway on their emotions. Don’t give someone else control over you because they don’t respect you enough that they’ll use such offensive words. Don’t give them that control. They’re worthless humans.
Sorry… you want the intellectually disabled to explain why something you say upsets them?
You do understand the concept of intellectual disability, right?
Of course I do. These statements are more broadly applicable. Specifically in the context of that reply, I was being asked about the “N-word”.
Additionally, it’s rather judgemental of you to assume that the intellectually disabled are incapable of enough comprehension that they can understand when something has offended them.
People who fit the description of intellectual disability are wildly varied in what constitutes their disability. Sure, some of them are nonverbal, some may be in a borderline vegetative state. Those are extremes and shouldn’t imply that all people with intellectual disabilities are incapable of understanding or verbalizing their feelings.
Bluntly, if someone is so intellectually disabled that they are unable to express, in some way, shape, or form, that a statement has either offended them, or that a statement does not offend them, then I would argue that the probability that they understand the potentially offensive statement well enough to have an opinion on it, is extremely remote. Thus, their opinion, which cannot be ascertained either way, is not relevant to the discussion.
What’s amazing to me is that you seem to be trying so very hard to find flaws in my argument and get me upset or something, and yet, even as I’m writing this, and recognizing that your statements are most likely just an attempt to troll me… I am stoic and entirely calm.
Think what you will of me. I could not possibly care any less than I already do. This entire discussion has been cathartic. I rarely get to voice my opinions on such things, since those that know me already know what my opinions are on this topic; most of the general population won’t sit and listen to a reasonable argument or have a productive discussion on such “hot button” topics.
So I want to say thank you for the discussion. I truly appreciate the opportunity to re-examine the issue. So far, I have heard no compelling argument to change my outlook or opinion on this issue, and I sincerely hope that at some point someone will read this and realize that they’re giving someone power over them with words, and change how they see such offensive language. If even one person has that moment of realization, then all the effort and time I’ve spent talking about this, has been time well spent.
I hope you, and everyone who reads this, now or in the future, have a very pleasant day.
I’m not assuming that at all. You’re assuming the ones who are capable enough haven’t stood up and said to stop using that word.
They have.
https://www.specialolympics.org/stories/impact/why-the-r-word-is-the-r-slur
https://www.spreadtheword.global/resource-archive/r-word-faq
I have not made such an assumption.
The statements in context are referring to a potential future time when they say that it’s not offensive. I made no statements about what has, or has not been said currently by those groups. I only acknowledged that currently the word is considered offensive.
I recognized in my original reply that the wording of the picture in the OP is problematic. Though it carries a decent enough message, the wording would be considered offensive by today’s standards.