Even Lemmygrad says there were 300 deaths. I really can’t find anyone saying it straight up didn’t happen, not even the CPC itself. The closest is saying that the massacre happened outside the square, which seems more of a technicality that both “sides” rely on to pretend the other is making stuff up. Ie, Lemmygrad claiming others know nothing because there was no massacre on the square itself and it all happened outside, while others see that as outright denial.
Lemmygrad also believes it was CIA-backed and turned a pro-Maoist, anti-Dengist protest into an anti-Maoist, anti-Dengist, pro-Liberal Democracy/Capitalist protest, which I would say ultimately doesn’t change that protestors were murdered even if that was true.
I think it’s helpful to see what people are actually saying, you can better argue it to be an atrocity that way. For example, as above, even if it was steered in a different direction by western forces, it still had popular support and as such was still an unjust escalation of force into massacre.
Interestingly, and having done a bit of extra reading, the current Western position is that the killings didn’t actually happen in the square itself, but in the surrounding streets as the army was pushing through Beijing to reach Tiananmen Square. Some of the initial reports that came out were evidently erroneous. Again, that’s internal communications in the USA acknowledging that. But still very awful and hundreds of people killed according to that version of events.
Yes. They try and minimize it as much as they possibly can. I’ve seem them claim on here that nobody was killed and that nothing happened at Tiananmen square.
The bloodbath happened on side streets, the square itself was cleared by intimidation alone.
The one important name to know regarding the background and politics of all this is Hu Yaobang. Party hard-liners were happy being a faction of the party and struggling things out with other factions, students had the gall to very openly support the reformist faction, though, and marching onto the square in the wake of Hu Yaobang’s death would’ve set precedent that you can just march onto the square and demand basic decency. Tankies can’t have that, they gotta tank, and thus the hardliners took over leadership and reverted course away from the reformists for a decade or two.
I mean yes but no the salient point for the Chinese would be that the army did in fact not roll over all the students on the square, they “merely” intimidated them out of there after massacring themselves through barricades Peking locals had erected to protect the students. I say massacring not so much because those people didn’t right-out attack the army, but because the fighting was completely one-sided we’re talking pretty much fists and stones against machine guns and tanks.
There were plenty of people within the CCP who wanted to see much more blood, that there was so relatively little blood is thanks to Peking locals (this time less militant ones) bringing rice and fried noodles to the army camping out in front of the city while explaining to them that (unlike what they had heard from the party) those weren’t counter-revolutionary bourgeois foreign agents on the square, but simply reformists.
That’s why that point is rather important, the Chinese people might not be saying it out loud but “there was a massacre on the square” implies that the people did nothing to influence the situation. They very much did and avoided a much worse calamity.
Still they give counterfactual assertions the same way Trump supporters give counter factual assertions about their lame coup attempt on Jan. 6. “It was a secret plot by someone else!!”
I’ll never understand how the tankies can claim it never happened when there’s so many pictures like this available.
Even Lemmygrad says there were 300 deaths. I really can’t find anyone saying it straight up didn’t happen, not even the CPC itself. The closest is saying that the massacre happened outside the square, which seems more of a technicality that both “sides” rely on to pretend the other is making stuff up. Ie, Lemmygrad claiming others know nothing because there was no massacre on the square itself and it all happened outside, while others see that as outright denial.
Lemmygrad also believes it was CIA-backed and turned a pro-Maoist, anti-Dengist protest into an anti-Maoist, anti-Dengist, pro-Liberal Democracy/Capitalist protest, which I would say ultimately doesn’t change that protestors were murdered even if that was true.
I think it’s helpful to see what people are actually saying, you can better argue it to be an atrocity that way. For example, as above, even if it was steered in a different direction by western forces, it still had popular support and as such was still an unjust escalation of force into massacre.
The massacre is undeniable.
Interestingly, and having done a bit of extra reading, the current Western position is that the killings didn’t actually happen in the square itself, but in the surrounding streets as the army was pushing through Beijing to reach Tiananmen Square. Some of the initial reports that came out were evidently erroneous. Again, that’s internal communications in the USA acknowledging that. But still very awful and hundreds of people killed according to that version of events.
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Yes. They try and minimize it as much as they possibly can. I’ve seem them claim on here that nobody was killed and that nothing happened at Tiananmen square.
The bloodbath happened on side streets, the square itself was cleared by intimidation alone.
The one important name to know regarding the background and politics of all this is Hu Yaobang. Party hard-liners were happy being a faction of the party and struggling things out with other factions, students had the gall to very openly support the reformist faction, though, and marching onto the square in the wake of Hu Yaobang’s death would’ve set precedent that you can just march onto the square and demand basic decency. Tankies can’t have that, they gotta tank, and thus the hardliners took over leadership and reverted course away from the reformists for a decade or two.
It was decided that “The-Side-Streets-Around-Tiananmen-Square Massacre” was a little too wordy
I mean yes but no the salient point for the Chinese would be that the army did in fact not roll over all the students on the square, they “merely” intimidated them out of there after massacring themselves through barricades Peking locals had erected to protect the students. I say massacring not so much because those people didn’t right-out attack the army, but because the fighting was completely one-sided we’re talking pretty much fists and stones against machine guns and tanks.
There were plenty of people within the CCP who wanted to see much more blood, that there was so relatively little blood is thanks to Peking locals (this time less militant ones) bringing rice and fried noodles to the army camping out in front of the city while explaining to them that (unlike what they had heard from the party) those weren’t counter-revolutionary bourgeois foreign agents on the square, but simply reformists.
That’s why that point is rather important, the Chinese people might not be saying it out loud but “there was a massacre on the square” implies that the people did nothing to influence the situation. They very much did and avoided a much worse calamity.
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So because you haven’t personally seen it yourself it didn’t happen? Ok.
So because you have seen it but don’t have proof it still totally happened?
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You say it like it’s the typical response though, essentially zero people believe nothing at all happened.
Still they give counterfactual assertions the same way Trump supporters give counter factual assertions about their lame coup attempt on Jan. 6. “It was a secret plot by someone else!!”