I was thinking about this; I know it’s hard to change from what you always have known and experienced as normal, so it’s not easy to transition out of animal products, but the carnists who show up here to argue with us literally seem crazy to me; their one constant answer is always it’s ok to murder and torture animals, and they can never give a good reason why.
It was a huge change for me. But now that I’ve made it, I cannot believe their endless faulty logic they cling so desperately to for NO reason.
Thank you for the wire up. I couldn’t have said it better. The only thing i want to give a different perspective on, is this:
I think there’s countless reasons why people decided to go vegan. And not all of them include understanding and compassion for the carnist’s position.
I’ve become vegan because reading “vegetarians are murders” made me feel awful (was vegetarian at the time). For me, it was definitely a form of shaming, or at least condemnation of my way of life, that made me change.
Different strokes for different folks I guess 🤷♂️
Thanks for your comment!! I agree there’s no one-size-fits-all for how people change for the better. Regarding shame, I think there’s an important distinction between the internal emotional experience of shame and the interpersonal behaviour of one person shaming another. Sometimes they go together, sometimes not.
To use my understanding of your case as an example, I wonder if another person verbally shaming you (in front of others) would have led to a similar honest reflection on your behaviour that led you to go vegan? Instead, was it important that you were exposed to a message that could elicit internal shame and that you also had the space and safety to stew on it?
I dealt with a lot of toxic shame as a kid (not related to diet), so I might have biases in thinking about the utility of shame in assisting people in going vegan. I too was vegetarian before vegan. I think for me it was more that a) I realized I should do better (e.g., after watching vegan documentaries), and b) I felt willing and able to give it a try. I think someone shaming me would have only slowed me down getting to a) and b). But, as you said: different strokes for different folks
I love this. I’ve never thought about what my trajectory would have looked like, if I had been shamed in person.
Now that I think about it, I’m not even sure shame is really the emotion that I was feeling before going vegan. I think having to face the reality of my actions probably elicited guilt rather than shame, because there was no social aspect to it (I don’t even know who wrote the sentence in the first place).
I think shame might be more effective for behavior change when it comes from one’s social context. There were times when I was younger, I wouldn’t mention I was vegan around coworkers, because I was ashamed of what they might have thought (yes, I’ve eaten vegetarian meals after becoming vegan).
On that token, I would say shame might only “work” in social settings, where the majority is vegan already. But that would probably not make someone believe in animal rights. Rather it might influence a person’s actions while in that setting.
Thank you for your well thought out reply. You’ve changed by mind 😄
Btw, I’m sorry to hear that you experienced a lot of shame in your childhood. I hope your doing better nowadays.
Interesting reflections! Great chatting with you :)