• darthelmet@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    10
    arrow-down
    4
    ·
    6 months ago

    2 points:

    1. Why is the republican the line for hard core authoritarianism? What the hell do you call it when the government does massive expansions to the military, police, and surveillance state while also designating left wing activists, including climate activists, as domestic terrorists? What about trying to undo the damage caused by the Supreme Court taking away people’s rights? If the republican’s actions were subversions of democracy, then surely it would be justified to take actions outside of normal law to oppose that. But they won’t do that, because at best the democrats are collaborators and more realistically, they’re just the faction of fascists with a better marketing department.

    2. There is a third option: Join up with your fellow workers/citizens/people around the world to work towards something actually productive. Join/organize a union. Sharpen your pitchforks. Destroy some pipelines. Become the domestic terrorist they’ve already labeled you as. That path won’t be any different under a democrat or republican president because both are just as adamant about maintaining the power of the state and capital over people.

    If your plan is to vote for one fascist then wish for the system to reform itself, I have 200+ years of history to show to you.

    • Telorand@reddthat.com
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      2
      arrow-down
      5
      ·
      6 months ago
      1. I did not say “hard core authoritarianism.” Go back and reread what I wrote. I said “hard Conservative Authoritarianism.” Biden is authoritarian, and I never said otherwise. Biden is not a Conservative (capital “C”).

      2. Okay. You be the one to start it. Put up or shut up. I’m not interested in this option until I see the ideologues and tankies brave enough to talk about this online doing it in reality. If all you have is, “C’mon bro! We just need to band together,” then it’s not much of a movement. Meanwhile, I plan to hold my nose and vote for Biden, because at least that’s an actionable plan.

      • darthelmet@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        4
        arrow-down
        1
        ·
        edit-2
        6 months ago
        • What?

        • One of these things requires effort and involves risk and the other does not. But only one of these things does anything if you end up doing it. Yeah. I’m not doing anything at the moment because I’m depressed, anxious, and don’t really know anyone I live near. I should be doing more, but it’s hard. But you know what I’m not doing? I’m not carrying water for fascists. If you want to talk about harm reduction, for as little as that matters, that inaction is doing less harm than your inaction of telling people to shut up and go tick a box to say they’re ok with fascists.

        EDIT: Perhaps more to the point: There have been and are still people who are doing this work regardless. People in countries that have been colonized or otherwise screwed over by the west put up a fight to try to change that. You aren’t just poo pooing hypothetical direct action that nobody has the courage to do. You’re supporting a government that actively attacks those people who are alrighty fighting for freedom and justice.

        • Telorand@reddthat.com
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          2
          arrow-down
          4
          ·
          6 months ago

          And see, that’s where we disagree. I see no evidence that Biden is a fascist (authoritarian ≠ fascist). If you want to convince me he’s a fascist, I’m going to need you to define what a fascist is and how Biden fits that definition.

          • darthelmet@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            5
            arrow-down
            1
            ·
            6 months ago

            I don’t see why you feel the need to obsess over definitions. I’ve already given a handful of my objections to the US gov and even some specific things done under the current administration.

            But hey, if you want another one: How about supporting a genocide? Is that fascist enough for you?

            • Telorand@reddthat.com
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              3
              arrow-down
              3
              ·
              6 months ago

              No. Because “supports genocide” is not an exclusively fascist thing, and that’s why definitions matter. People on the internet love to reduce it to “Guh, Biden is a fascist,” but words have meaning. It’s telling that when asked to define what they think a fascist is, they always deflect. I have never once met someone who can, because they know they are committing a reductio ad absurdum fallacy.

              Call Biden a fascist all you want, but if you don’t know what those words mean, you’re just making shit up and spouting some bullshit you heard from Political Compass chuds on the internet.

              • darthelmet@lemmy.world
                link
                fedilink
                arrow-up
                4
                ·
                edit-2
                6 months ago

                I’m missing the part where the word matters more than what’s actually happening. If your best defense of Biden is “Well AHKTUALLY! Technically Biden isn’t a fascist because of whatever definition I’m using!” What are we doing here? Just say you don’t care about hurting people. It’ll make things go a lot faster.

                EDIT: Or if I’m being slightly more charitable: Even if you aren’t ok with hurting people, you view the decision to support current harm being done to people as at worst a neutral act, and possibly even positive since it could be worse. You don’t see how your support for the status quo enables continued once sided violence rather than keeping a fictitious peace.

                What I’m telling you is that you ARE making a decision and that decision IS for more state and structural violence. But you’re too caught up in the fantasy land that is definitions and respectability politics.

                I’m deflecting from talking about the definitions? You’re using definitions to deflect from reality. What do you even want? If I copy pasted a definition from Wikipedia or the dictionary would you then be happy and engage with the reality of what’s actually going on? Are you then going to talk about sending weapons to arm a genocide or grossly expanding the surveillance state? Or will you just move on to some other pedantry?

                • Telorand@reddthat.com
                  link
                  fedilink
                  arrow-up
                  1
                  arrow-down
                  4
                  ·
                  6 months ago

                  It’s not the end-all for me. That’s why it matters. Genocide is bad, and I’m sure we both agree. But imagine you can choose a candidate who supports a genocidal regime or you choose a candidate who supports a genocidal regime and makes being LGBTQ federally illegal, and makes abortion federally illegal, and plans to install a theocracy.

                  One of those two will be president next year. Period. Choosing a third option will only help Trump, who has a reliable and rabid voting base.

                  • darthelmet@lemmy.world
                    link
                    fedilink
                    arrow-up
                    4
                    ·
                    6 months ago

                    You can choose your own moral logic, but for me I don’t think this argument holds much value.

                    • For one, it takes it as a given that some of that suffering will happen regardless and we are powerless to do anything about it. We’re not. There is another choice, you’re just not willing to accept it as valid.

                    • By supporting the system which causes this suffering, you are enabling the suffering. Period. You are saying “We will not oppose you doing these things as long as you’re not doing some other things.” Except of course even those other things are on the table because you’ve already backed yourselves into a position where any amount of evil is acceptable if there is a greater one out there somewhere.

                    • How can you assign and weigh the moral value of the suffering of any given group against any other? Do LGBTQ rights for the imperial core help the people getting bombed in various countries around the world? Does the legal right to an abortion help the people who don’t have financial access to get one for lack of healthcare? (Remember, in America, a right is only a right if you can afford to exercise it.) How do you even begin to compare the value of any given policy (or lack of policy) to the harm done by living in a surveillance state?

                    To me, the harm reduction argument is one that says “We are ok with trading the rights of some people for other people and we believe we have the right to make that decision for those groups.” It’s horrifyingly easy to hand wave away the suffering of people you don’t know. But if you were living in Israel, Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Libya, Vietnam, Korea, Cuba… actually it’ll be faster if I just link this: https://archive.globalpolicy.org/us-westward-expansion/26024-us-interventions.html

                    If you were one of the people impacted by US imperialism… would you still make the same choice? Would you still support the US government because a different US government might hurt some US people you don’t know?