As “funny” as this might be, if you don’t fucking vote Biden you’re likely voting for a huge world wide change off a cliff. If Trump wins, then your precious Gaza will be wiped out or whatever similar words he used. And that is just the start. His claims, he wants to be a dictator, the 2025 document basically wishes the US to become Gilead, and lots more fun stuff.
Seriously, maybe this might be slightly panicky, but these are things that are in all seriousness claimed by the Republican party and Trump. That is what you will be voting for if you don’t vote Biden , so how about you shut the . up for now about this, at least until after the elections?
On a side note, I can guarantee you that these groups end up receiving funding from Russia and whatnot. Not that they do that willingly or knowingly, but with Russia continuously meddling in US politics, you can rest assured that Putin won’t sit by while this is happening, he needs his useful idiot in US power.
You know who could very quickly win those voters back and make sure he wins in a landslide? Joe Biden. And you know what is all that he has to do for it? Stop sending weapons and money to Israel. This is already what the US laws mandate by the way. So all he has to do is uphold US laws he is currently breaking
Bonus points for recognizing Palestine internationally and getting Israeli war criminals in front of the ICC.
Why are you blaming the victims of Bidens politics instead of Biden, who has all the power to change these things right now?
This lime of thinking is all well and good. We should be holding Biden accountable for what tragedies we endorse on the world stage.
But the answer is not enabling a much worse monster to take his place. Especially considering the monster in question has a unilaterally worse stance on almost everything we are currently upset with Biden about.
It’s not as black and white as justification of not voting because “Biden could win you/them back”. We are on a sinking ship, and even though Biden could be doing more to patch it up, Trump is actively advocating for a bigger hole.
so how about you shut the . up for now about this, at least until after the elections?
I can guarantee you that these groups end up receiving funding from Russia and whatnot
You can fuck ALL the way off with that bullshit. Libs like this are going to guarantee low turnout if they keep callously screaming shit like this to people who feel strongly about not being party to butchering children.
Instead of threatening and blaming voters you should be threatening and blaming the administration for alienating and disenfranchising millions of voters who would otherwise vote for him.
Yeah, and all of it is pretty on point, like it or not.
Go vote trump, or that brain worm guy, or don’t vote at all. Trump will then win and when he’s been in for a year, let’s talk again and see how well your argument held up.
I’d love to do anything else than what I’m doing now but stakes are rather high, not only for Palestinians, not only for Americans.
people who feel strongly about not being party to butchering children
You think Trump taking the white house is going to change that? The only difference enabling republicans is going to make is how much things are going to get worse.
Conservative voters aren’t bound by the same morals. They don’t abstain because their leaders are causing suffering.
Biden is fallible, end of story. The guy has a shit track record, signing onto all sorts of shit that has made this country worse. We could talk till we are blue in the face about how shitty the two party system is but you assholes (idealists) seem to only show up around election time then disappear after everyone has to eat the shit sandwich we end up with.
but you assholes (idealists) seem to only show up around election time then disappear after everyone has to eat the shit sandwich we end up with.
We’ve always been here, and we’ve always been the ones eating the shit sandwich. We just suddenly become relevant around election time when the libs are looking for someone to scapegoat for their failing electoral strategy.
Where were you in 2021 when I was shit talking Biden all over the internet and getting shut down at every turn?
Where were you 2022 with the same result?
2023 I said fuck it and went to lemmy.
2024 all the sudden, “you know that Biden guy kinda sucks.”
Yeah we have been here the whole time, y’all just been ignoring us especially when the truths we were speaking were inconvenient for your strategies of shaping your world view purely off an averaging function of other people’s views around you rather than a serious, adult intellectual understanding of human rights, the military industrial complex, late stage capitalism and colonialism.
See here’s the thing, most of us “radical leftists” care so deeply about doing the right thing that we have kept supporting y’all because you are usually less violent in policy making than Republicans. In return, you insult us for not showing up for elections we show up for, you laugh at us for being weird and eccentric when you are drunk with your Republican friends even though we are by far the highest energy and most impactful grass roots organizers in your coalition, you call us betrayers of the cause when we make your shitty candidates deal with aspects of their policies that are extremely problematic, you talk about us to the general public like we are below the moral level of conservatives who our political ideologies are specifically founded on a basis that the hate within conservatism of all kinds is the root of violence and suffering.
It’s over, the fact that Biden won’t even budge about the genocide of Palestinians when the raw US poll numbers send a clear signal of support for Palestinians, and no especial attachment to Israel is very very very close to making the progressive coalition with the Democratic Party an extinct species. Y’all will yell at us on the TV about how this was our fault when your political strategies catastrophically fail, as you have always done, but the difference this time is we shut the TVs off a long time ago and are out organizing your shitty belief system out of power so it can’t hurt more people.
So it will be that it leftists will be the ones organizing the evacuation of the ship and getting people into life boats while y’all will have gone to get the captain to come down and make us stop violating the orderly rules of command on the ship, and then when you finally comprehend the sea about to swallow you up you will scream it was our fault the ship sunk (that y’all never let us captain for even a second even though you let your rightwing friends drive the ship all the time even when you were technically supposed to be on the helm).
How very self righteous you are. So willing to throw the country in turmoil for a cause you cannot even mitigate with all the tools of democracy at your disposal.
No, I don’t believe anyone will be lining up behind you.
Edit:
And before you say, “this will be different.” The question is how?
The conservatives don’t just disappear because authoritarianism had taken root. The centrist don’t suddenly feel inspired to leave behind convenience for a cause they will never see the benefits of.
Nope. You have a choice, and that is slow steady change of compromise and hard fought battles where the line sways ever further right; or you let go and the true molestation of your rights begins.
But who am I to be the person to let you in on the secrets of the ages. You can experience it yourself when you let the gaurd die and project 2025 goes live. Then you yourself also get to come to terms with the fact that your own morals and never compromising idealism is simply crushed under the weight of societies group think. Forgetting that once you had a hint of a voice that you could cast into the abyss but now you lay silent as it engulfs everything.
Track record so shit his administration has been responsible for some of the biggest labor wins in the last half century. NLRB ruling anyone. Or them Banning non-compete agreements. Or maybe the fact that they just fucking rescheduled marijuana. Or all the debt relief they provided. Or the manufacturing that they are bringing back to the United states. That one still work in progress. Or the fact that if it wasn’t for one of Biden’s patented gas we may not have marriage equality at all still. None of it’s perfect all of it could have been better. But in arguably all of them are wins.
It’s easy to forget or not to even be aware of all this from all the well-funded bourgeoisie propaganda. And the accelerationist Virtue signaling LARPing leftists. Who don’t have any suggestions Solutions or alternatives. Just hyperbolically attacking Biden and outright lying about him while down playing genocide. Putting things in a bit of perspective in the 2020 primaries. Biden was my second to last choice on the Democrat side. The only candidate I place below him was culty tulsy. He’s far exceeded all my expectations. Granted they were exceedingly low. He hasn’t shit his pants yet. Though he shit bed hard with regards to his Israel policy optics. It’s only slightly less ridiculous than all the blame people are giving him for it though. Regardless of whether or not he expedited the weapons they would have still been sent to Israel. Congress is the one responsible for it. No matter how much people want him to cut funds going to Israel he can’t. That’s congress’s job. But I don’t see anyone putting pressure on Congress or Mike Johnson in that regard. Just a lot of fake concern about biden.
I agree with everything you said. I’m just thinking back to the primaries and if we look at Bidens long history he is responsible for some stupid shit. I won’t go over it now, you probably already know. We even knew his stance on Isreal in 2020 and no one said shit until it became reality. Like, if Biden said, “I’m going to nuke the shit out of anyone who attacks the US” then you elect him and someone attacks the US guess what’s going to happen. Oh, but then we know and we will just elect someone different next time. Guess what, next time the alternative wants to indiscriminately nuke everyone for no reason at all.
I digress. Biden is the consequence of our collective actions as a nation. These fools who keep falling for what ever divide and concur scheme the right hatches are just that. Fools.
Look, I’m not willing to write a book for you about how complex the US alliance is with Israel and the Middle east. I’m also not going to justify the current genocide that’s happening at the hands of Israel.
But I will say that it’s not as simple as telling Israel to stop. The idea that Biden is openly endorsing genocide is a political cudgel that bad actors use to frame the whole situation as if Biden has a magical stop button he just doesn’t want to press.
The reality is that Israel can have this alliance with a number of first world countries and chooses to keep relations with the states, which in turn gives the US a political foothold in a region that is essentially completely hostile.
If not for that relationship being upheld, Israel would buy their weapons from China or Russia instead, and the genocide would continue without the US even having the ability to stymie it, like they are currently trying to do.
Biden isn’t genocidal. He’s doing what he can without destroying an alliance that keeps things from getting a lot worse. Which is a far cry from what Trump wants, which is for Israel to just nuke the strip and get it over with.
I’m not willing to write a book for you about how complex the US alliance is with Israel and the Middle east.
You don’t need to, I already understand the US’s interest in Israel. The problem is that none of the interests the US has in the ME are worth enabling a genocide against a colonized people, and I suspect that is exactly why nobody actually wants to spend the effort explaining it in defense of the US’s diplomatic stance toward Israel. When it comes to international conflict and hostile action around the world, the democrats are just as bad or worse than their republican counterparts, and having that highlighted by making a case for keeping diplomatic ties with a nation conducting a genocide would make that abundantly clear.
which in turn gives the US a political foothold in a region that is essentially completely hostile.
If not for that relationship being upheld, Israel would buy their weapons from China or Russia instead, and the genocide would continue without the US even having the ability to stymie it, like they are currently trying to do.
Israel benefits greatly from US support and defense, so much so that any replacement wouldn’t be the same (especially when both Russia and China are involved in other conflicts already). I don’t think this line of reasoning is particularly convincing. But even then, there are also sanctions and the ICC to put pressure to put an end to the genocide, it isn’t limited to defense aid.
The idea that Biden is openly endorsing genocide is a political cudgel that bad actors use to frame the whole situation as if Biden has a magical stop button he just doesn’t want to press.
Worse, he openly denies it’s even happening even though he knows full well Israel has been conducting war crimes in Gaza. I don’t think it’s bad faith to accuse him of endorsement when he continues defending Israel when he knows full well they’ve been breaking international law (as well as butchering palestinian children), but I’ll admit he hasn’t said those words out loud.
the democrats are just as bad or worse than their republican counterparts
You’re not seriously suggesting that modern Republicans are going to handle this situation better? Aside from the very obvious point that they stated their intent about Israel just finishing them off, the only perspective that Republicans are better at foreign relations at all is from that of an isolationist, which is not what we are.
That region is hostile toward the US and western alliance for very valid reasons.
I didn’t say we aren’t at fault for that hostility, I meant to express that the middle east is hostile in general, to each other, particularly to Israel and especially to western nations.
Israel benefits greatly from US support and defense, so much so that any replacement wouldn’t be the same
It doesn’t have to be the same to build relationships that would effectively seek to cut the US from the process altogether. Otherwise the US would have much more influence over situations like this and a magic stop button might actually exist.
Worse, he openly denies it’s even happening even though he knows full well Israel has been conducting war crimes in Gaza
This is simply not true and a manipulative way of framing the diplomacy that goes into maintaining relationships between nations. It’s completely dishonest to decide that Biden is pro genocide because he won’t say the word genocide. It took 7 years for the US to officially recognize the Chinese genocide, and they are our enemies. It took a year and a half for the US to file war crime charges against Russia, and we sent Ukraine several billion in aid during that period. And those are just recent examples. Genocides typically take decades to be recognized by the US regardless of what the relationship is between the countries.
The hard truth is that it’s completely irrational to throw away any influence the US might have and burn those bridges for the singular purpose of a actioning a label that has no tangible effect by itself. It’s essentially virtue signaling on a national level.
I think personally that Israel shouldn’t see a red cent from the US until they at least cease hostility and come to the negotiation table, and demanding that probably won’t be a deal breaker for our alliance. But I also don’t have several decades of experience dealing with this exact conflict from the perspective of the US.
Basing your entire political opinion on a conceptual label that historically doesn’t happen quickly is rash at the very least, and damaging on a national level when you consider what the alternative is.
Conservative voters don’t care about this shit show. They will turn out to vote no matter what, and they will vote for war mongers that also actively want to degrade society in the US, and absolutely won’t be recognizing the Palestinian genocide.
You’re not seriously suggesting that modern Republicans are going to handle this situation better?
I’m saying the US has committed atrocities under both parties, and that by some metrics, democratic administrations have engaged in more brutal bombing campaigns than republican led administrations - important to remember Truman was the one who dropped the atom bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Republicans are certainly louder and more blusterous about it, but for any American that is ashamed of our history of violence and subterfuge abroad, they can take no more comfort from democratic leadership than republicans. (I would be wise to point out that is not any kind of endorsement). It isn’t just the current conflict in Gaza or Ukraine. Frankly, to their credit, least republicans are transparent about their chauvinism. I could hardly say the same about Biden.
The hard truth is that it’s completely irrational to throw away any influence the US might have and burn those bridges for the singular purpose of a actioning a label that has no tangible effect by itself.
If Americans believe themselves to be arbitors of justice and democracy abroad, then allowing and materially supporting one of the most significant atrocities against Palestinians since the Nakba is a damning counterfactual to that image. If we don’t maintain foreign relationships to prevent atrocities like the one we are now participating in (naive to ever think that is the case), then at some point you have to think there is some other morally-abhorrent (or at least morally-unconcerned) interest that should be re-evaluated anyway.
If we align ourselves with nations that brazenly commit genocide without fear of repurcussion, then what does that say about the US?
“Every man is like the company he is wont to keep.” - Euripides
But I also don’t have several decades of experience dealing with this exact conflict from the perspective of the US.
You shouldn’t be so comfortable with that assumption of innocence.
They will turn out to vote no matter what, and they will vote for war mongers that also actively want to degrade society in the US, and absolutely won’t be recognizing the Palestinian genocide.
All the more reason to be screaming at Democrats that they risk losing support if they maintain their diplomatic stances. They’ve grown too complacent in their support from leftists, and the chickens finally seem to be coming home to roost.
Frankly, to their credit, least republicans are transparent about their chauvinism. I could hardly say the same about Biden.
Does it make sense to lower the bar for republicans simply because they are honest about their brutality?
If we align ourselves with nations that brazenly commit genocide without fear of repurcussion, then what does that say about the US?
And if we sit out we lose the ability to influence the situation at all to parties who are comfortable just outright killing off entire peoples. Sticking our nose in the air and saying “We won’t be part of it” is not the solution you might think it is.
You shouldn’t be so comfortable with that assumption of innocence
I’m not making an assumption of innocence, I’m acknowledging that without experience my take on the subject should be considered that of a layman, just like any take that isn’t born out of a complete picture of the situation. On the contrary to your accusation of a simplistic view that the US has pure intentions, what I’m saying is that short of a degree or several years experience dealing with this conflict first hand, any conclusions a person might jump to about this situation in the first place are going to be simple and incomplete.
I’m not insinuating we should trust the government to handle it in a way that doesn’t perpetuate genocide, because they clearly aren’t doing that. I’m just pointing out that the public zeitgeist on this conflict is based on knee jerk reactions to complex political moves.
The prime example of that being leftists angry at Biden for not pressing a “stop genocide button” that functionally doesn’t exist.
All the more reason to be screaming at Democrats that they risk losing support if they maintain their diplomatic stances. They’ve grown too complacent in their support from leftists, and the chickens finally seem to be coming home to roost.
I’m with you on that, but there doesn’t seem to be an easy way out that doesn’t rely on the democratic platform just magically changing. Is it worth handing over our democracy to a party that might well destroy it just to teach the other party a lesson?
Only an idiot would abstain or vote for Trump all because of this issue. Biden is a shit president, but he’s worlds better than Trump has been, or could ever be.
This said, I agree that OP can fuck off with some of that language. The protests need to call Biden out. Bonus points for calling both candidates out, though. They’ve both chosen the wrong side of this.
you should be threatening and blaming the administration for alienating and disenfranchising millions of voters who would otherwise vote for him.
I’m talking about these people who would otherwise vote for him. The ones who will, by not voting for Biden, increase the changes of a worse outcome for something they claim to care about.
But hey, their conscience will be clear not having voted for Biden, right?
Conscience has something to do with guilt and blame, doesn’t it? It at least deals with the attribution of harm, and my point is that attributing the ‘increase in chances of harm’ to protestors a bit misplaced, since it’s Biden who has the agency to act against Israel, not the protestors.
The protestors are simply modeling the behavior they want to see from Biden: withhold support (or threaten to do so) from Israel until some concession is made. Either Israel will relent or we’ll reduce their ability to continue their assault on Gaza.
Criticize him all you want, but please wait until the election is over? Pretty please? Last thing we need is people lashing out and not voting at all, that’s how you get another 4 years of trump
I agree that everyone should vote Biden in November, but no… this can’t wait until then. Biden needs to address this, and he’s absolutely earning the nickname we see here by failing to do so.
He didn’t start this mess, and we probably can’t abandon Israel as an ally for a myriad of tactical and political reasons… But we can and should address the weapons being sent over regularly.
I agree it can’t wait, but it will have to. You forget that Biden amhas more things to take into account than just our opinions on it, right as we may be. If he kicks the Israeli government he might disenfranchise the Jewish community who then may decide not to vote for him, then Trump it is and bye bye Palestinians. It must suck to be in his place.
Anyway, I would not immediately assume that Biden is loving this genocide, he likely has many things to consider
Russia is funding and arming a fascist movement against the Americans. And you diminish this abimination. /s
Man, it’s so easy to make someone sound bad when you purposefully misrepresent what they said. You didn’t actually engage with them. You only tried to make them sound evil, even though they’re advocating for protecting Palestinians as much as we possibly can. Please stop this garbage.
Please read the comment and explain how the person was “advocating for protecting Palestinians as much as we possibly can.”
To me it sounds like they don’t care about them at all, and see them as nothing more than an inconvenience in getting Biden reelected. Which is the mainstream Dem position
Comment is reposted below for your convenience:
"As “funny” as this might be, if you don’t fucking vote Biden you’re likely voting for a huge world wide change off a cliff. If Trump wins, then your precious Gaza will be wiped out or whatever similar words he used. And that is just the start. His claims, he wants to be a dictator, the 2025 document basically wishes the US to become Gilead, and lots more fun stuff.
Seriously, maybe this might be slightly panicky, but these are things that are in all seriousness claimed by the Republican party and Trump. That is what you will be voting for if you don’t vote Biden , so how about you shut the . up for now about this, at least until after the elections?
On a side note, I can guarantee you that these groups end up receiving funding from Russia and whatnot. Not that they do that willingly or knowingly, but with Russia continuously meddling in US politics, you can rest assured that Putin won’t sit by while this is happening, he needs his useful idiot in US power."
Cool, now do Biden’s hard-line position!! Only one of these guys is currently in power with his foot on the genocide gas pedal and nobody here seems to want to do anything to stop it! Absolute horse shit if you ask me
Do you prefer genocide or more genocide and the end of democracy? That’s where we are at right now
Explain how it is that this is actually where we are at.
And, if this is actually where we are at, then why should any of us want to maintain such a system? Shouldn’t a system that is reliant on genocide be dismantled? Isn’t that the entire point of the Nuremberg Trials?
Question, who should someone who wants to end the genocide, vote for? What is your suggestion? How and why would that vote change the situation for the better? How likelihood is the desired outcome?
You should be protesting against the war and show solidarity with others doing the same
Panic posting about protestors endangering an election is counter effectual; if you want to help you can start by keeping your mouth shut about the election in the context of the protest.
As “funny” as this might be, if you don’t fucking vote Biden you’re likely voting for a huge world wide change off a cliff. If Trump wins, then your precious Gaza will be wiped out or whatever similar words he used. And that is just the start. His claims, he wants to be a dictator, the 2025 document basically wishes the US to become Gilead, and lots more fun stuff.
Seriously, maybe this might be slightly panicky, but these are things that are in all seriousness claimed by the Republican party and Trump. That is what you will be voting for if you don’t vote Biden , so how about you shut the . up for now about this, at least until after the elections?
On a side note, I can guarantee you that these groups end up receiving funding from Russia and whatnot. Not that they do that willingly or knowingly, but with Russia continuously meddling in US politics, you can rest assured that Putin won’t sit by while this is happening, he needs his useful idiot in US power.
You know who could very quickly win those voters back and make sure he wins in a landslide? Joe Biden. And you know what is all that he has to do for it? Stop sending weapons and money to Israel. This is already what the US laws mandate by the way. So all he has to do is uphold US laws he is currently breaking
Bonus points for recognizing Palestine internationally and getting Israeli war criminals in front of the ICC.
Why are you blaming the victims of Bidens politics instead of Biden, who has all the power to change these things right now?
That is laughable. A US president to get war criminals before a court that the US does not recognize.
You know who could lose the elections if he pushes against the Israeli government causing disenfranchised Jewish voters?
Yeah. It’s not that easy.
This lime of thinking is all well and good. We should be holding Biden accountable for what tragedies we endorse on the world stage.
But the answer is not enabling a much worse monster to take his place. Especially considering the monster in question has a unilaterally worse stance on almost everything we are currently upset with Biden about.
It’s not as black and white as justification of not voting because “Biden could win you/them back”. We are on a sinking ship, and even though Biden could be doing more to patch it up, Trump is actively advocating for a bigger hole.
We need more Limes of Thinking in our current timeline
Our current timelime. Limeline? Limetime.
in the limelight.
and oranges of compassion to go with it
You can fuck ALL the way off with that bullshit. Libs like this are going to guarantee low turnout if they keep callously screaming shit like this to people who feel strongly about not being party to butchering children.
Instead of threatening and blaming voters you should be threatening and blaming the administration for alienating and disenfranchising millions of voters who would otherwise vote for him.
Yeah, and all of it is pretty on point, like it or not.
Go vote trump, or that brain worm guy, or don’t vote at all. Trump will then win and when he’s been in for a year, let’s talk again and see how well your argument held up.
I’d love to do anything else than what I’m doing now but stakes are rather high, not only for Palestinians, not only for Americans.
You think Trump taking the white house is going to change that? The only difference enabling republicans is going to make is how much things are going to get worse.
Conservative voters aren’t bound by the same morals. They don’t abstain because their leaders are causing suffering.
No, which is why it’s incredible to me that Biden would risk it by his hardline endorsement of Israeli war crimes in gaza.
Biden is fallible, end of story. The guy has a shit track record, signing onto all sorts of shit that has made this country worse. We could talk till we are blue in the face about how shitty the two party system is but you assholes (idealists) seem to only show up around election time then disappear after everyone has to eat the shit sandwich we end up with.
We’ve always been here, and we’ve always been the ones eating the shit sandwich. We just suddenly become relevant around election time when the libs are looking for someone to scapegoat for their failing electoral strategy.
Where were you in 2021 when I was shit talking Biden all over the internet and getting shut down at every turn? Where were you 2022 with the same result? 2023 I said fuck it and went to lemmy.
2024 all the sudden, “you know that Biden guy kinda sucks.”
We could have primaried him you assholes.
Yeah we have been here the whole time, y’all just been ignoring us especially when the truths we were speaking were inconvenient for your strategies of shaping your world view purely off an averaging function of other people’s views around you rather than a serious, adult intellectual understanding of human rights, the military industrial complex, late stage capitalism and colonialism.
See here’s the thing, most of us “radical leftists” care so deeply about doing the right thing that we have kept supporting y’all because you are usually less violent in policy making than Republicans. In return, you insult us for not showing up for elections we show up for, you laugh at us for being weird and eccentric when you are drunk with your Republican friends even though we are by far the highest energy and most impactful grass roots organizers in your coalition, you call us betrayers of the cause when we make your shitty candidates deal with aspects of their policies that are extremely problematic, you talk about us to the general public like we are below the moral level of conservatives who our political ideologies are specifically founded on a basis that the hate within conservatism of all kinds is the root of violence and suffering.
It’s over, the fact that Biden won’t even budge about the genocide of Palestinians when the raw US poll numbers send a clear signal of support for Palestinians, and no especial attachment to Israel is very very very close to making the progressive coalition with the Democratic Party an extinct species. Y’all will yell at us on the TV about how this was our fault when your political strategies catastrophically fail, as you have always done, but the difference this time is we shut the TVs off a long time ago and are out organizing your shitty belief system out of power so it can’t hurt more people.
So it will be that it leftists will be the ones organizing the evacuation of the ship and getting people into life boats while y’all will have gone to get the captain to come down and make us stop violating the orderly rules of command on the ship, and then when you finally comprehend the sea about to swallow you up you will scream it was our fault the ship sunk (that y’all never let us captain for even a second even though you let your rightwing friends drive the ship all the time even when you were technically supposed to be on the helm).
How very self righteous you are. So willing to throw the country in turmoil for a cause you cannot even mitigate with all the tools of democracy at your disposal.
No, I don’t believe anyone will be lining up behind you.
Edit:
And before you say, “this will be different.” The question is how?
The conservatives don’t just disappear because authoritarianism had taken root. The centrist don’t suddenly feel inspired to leave behind convenience for a cause they will never see the benefits of.
Nope. You have a choice, and that is slow steady change of compromise and hard fought battles where the line sways ever further right; or you let go and the true molestation of your rights begins.
But who am I to be the person to let you in on the secrets of the ages. You can experience it yourself when you let the gaurd die and project 2025 goes live. Then you yourself also get to come to terms with the fact that your own morals and never compromising idealism is simply crushed under the weight of societies group think. Forgetting that once you had a hint of a voice that you could cast into the abyss but now you lay silent as it engulfs everything.
Been here the whole time.
Where was your anti-biden movement? Protests? Anything?
You can’t be so blind to see that this shit is all manufactured to get Trump into office.
Bibi gets to kill Palestinians
Trump gets cover while he sits in court for 94 criminal indictments
Putin is off the world stage while Ukraine is still under seige
W/e you’re so morally superior but somehow can’t see the forest through the trees.
Track record so shit his administration has been responsible for some of the biggest labor wins in the last half century. NLRB ruling anyone. Or them Banning non-compete agreements. Or maybe the fact that they just fucking rescheduled marijuana. Or all the debt relief they provided. Or the manufacturing that they are bringing back to the United states. That one still work in progress. Or the fact that if it wasn’t for one of Biden’s patented gas we may not have marriage equality at all still. None of it’s perfect all of it could have been better. But in arguably all of them are wins.
It’s easy to forget or not to even be aware of all this from all the well-funded bourgeoisie propaganda. And the accelerationist Virtue signaling LARPing leftists. Who don’t have any suggestions Solutions or alternatives. Just hyperbolically attacking Biden and outright lying about him while down playing genocide. Putting things in a bit of perspective in the 2020 primaries. Biden was my second to last choice on the Democrat side. The only candidate I place below him was culty tulsy. He’s far exceeded all my expectations. Granted they were exceedingly low. He hasn’t shit his pants yet. Though he shit bed hard with regards to his Israel policy optics. It’s only slightly less ridiculous than all the blame people are giving him for it though. Regardless of whether or not he expedited the weapons they would have still been sent to Israel. Congress is the one responsible for it. No matter how much people want him to cut funds going to Israel he can’t. That’s congress’s job. But I don’t see anyone putting pressure on Congress or Mike Johnson in that regard. Just a lot of fake concern about biden.
I agree with everything you said. I’m just thinking back to the primaries and if we look at Bidens long history he is responsible for some stupid shit. I won’t go over it now, you probably already know. We even knew his stance on Isreal in 2020 and no one said shit until it became reality. Like, if Biden said, “I’m going to nuke the shit out of anyone who attacks the US” then you elect him and someone attacks the US guess what’s going to happen. Oh, but then we know and we will just elect someone different next time. Guess what, next time the alternative wants to indiscriminately nuke everyone for no reason at all.
I digress. Biden is the consequence of our collective actions as a nation. These fools who keep falling for what ever divide and concur scheme the right hatches are just that. Fools.
Look, I’m not willing to write a book for you about how complex the US alliance is with Israel and the Middle east. I’m also not going to justify the current genocide that’s happening at the hands of Israel.
But I will say that it’s not as simple as telling Israel to stop. The idea that Biden is openly endorsing genocide is a political cudgel that bad actors use to frame the whole situation as if Biden has a magical stop button he just doesn’t want to press.
The reality is that Israel can have this alliance with a number of first world countries and chooses to keep relations with the states, which in turn gives the US a political foothold in a region that is essentially completely hostile.
If not for that relationship being upheld, Israel would buy their weapons from China or Russia instead, and the genocide would continue without the US even having the ability to stymie it, like they are currently trying to do.
Biden isn’t genocidal. He’s doing what he can without destroying an alliance that keeps things from getting a lot worse. Which is a far cry from what Trump wants, which is for Israel to just nuke the strip and get it over with.
You don’t need to, I already understand the US’s interest in Israel. The problem is that none of the interests the US has in the ME are worth enabling a genocide against a colonized people, and I suspect that is exactly why nobody actually wants to spend the effort explaining it in defense of the US’s diplomatic stance toward Israel. When it comes to international conflict and hostile action around the world, the democrats are just as bad or worse than their republican counterparts, and having that highlighted by making a case for keeping diplomatic ties with a nation conducting a genocide would make that abundantly clear.
That region is hostile toward the US and western alliance for very valid reasons.
Israel benefits greatly from US support and defense, so much so that any replacement wouldn’t be the same (especially when both Russia and China are involved in other conflicts already). I don’t think this line of reasoning is particularly convincing. But even then, there are also sanctions and the ICC to put pressure to put an end to the genocide, it isn’t limited to defense aid.
Worse, he openly denies it’s even happening even though he knows full well Israel has been conducting war crimes in Gaza. I don’t think it’s bad faith to accuse him of endorsement when he continues defending Israel when he knows full well they’ve been breaking international law (as well as butchering palestinian children), but I’ll admit he hasn’t said those words out loud.
You’re not seriously suggesting that modern Republicans are going to handle this situation better? Aside from the very obvious point that they stated their intent about Israel just finishing them off, the only perspective that Republicans are better at foreign relations at all is from that of an isolationist, which is not what we are.
I didn’t say we aren’t at fault for that hostility, I meant to express that the middle east is hostile in general, to each other, particularly to Israel and especially to western nations.
It doesn’t have to be the same to build relationships that would effectively seek to cut the US from the process altogether. Otherwise the US would have much more influence over situations like this and a magic stop button might actually exist.
This is simply not true and a manipulative way of framing the diplomacy that goes into maintaining relationships between nations. It’s completely dishonest to decide that Biden is pro genocide because he won’t say the word genocide. It took 7 years for the US to officially recognize the Chinese genocide, and they are our enemies. It took a year and a half for the US to file war crime charges against Russia, and we sent Ukraine several billion in aid during that period. And those are just recent examples. Genocides typically take decades to be recognized by the US regardless of what the relationship is between the countries.
The hard truth is that it’s completely irrational to throw away any influence the US might have and burn those bridges for the singular purpose of a actioning a label that has no tangible effect by itself. It’s essentially virtue signaling on a national level.
I think personally that Israel shouldn’t see a red cent from the US until they at least cease hostility and come to the negotiation table, and demanding that probably won’t be a deal breaker for our alliance. But I also don’t have several decades of experience dealing with this exact conflict from the perspective of the US.
Basing your entire political opinion on a conceptual label that historically doesn’t happen quickly is rash at the very least, and damaging on a national level when you consider what the alternative is.
Conservative voters don’t care about this shit show. They will turn out to vote no matter what, and they will vote for war mongers that also actively want to degrade society in the US, and absolutely won’t be recognizing the Palestinian genocide.
I’m saying the US has committed atrocities under both parties, and that by some metrics, democratic administrations have engaged in more brutal bombing campaigns than republican led administrations - important to remember Truman was the one who dropped the atom bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Republicans are certainly louder and more blusterous about it, but for any American that is ashamed of our history of violence and subterfuge abroad, they can take no more comfort from democratic leadership than republicans. (I would be wise to point out that is not any kind of endorsement). It isn’t just the current conflict in Gaza or Ukraine. Frankly, to their credit, least republicans are transparent about their chauvinism. I could hardly say the same about Biden.
If Americans believe themselves to be arbitors of justice and democracy abroad, then allowing and materially supporting one of the most significant atrocities against Palestinians since the Nakba is a damning counterfactual to that image. If we don’t maintain foreign relationships to prevent atrocities like the one we are now participating in (naive to ever think that is the case), then at some point you have to think there is some other morally-abhorrent (or at least morally-unconcerned) interest that should be re-evaluated anyway.
If we align ourselves with nations that brazenly commit genocide without fear of repurcussion, then what does that say about the US?
“Every man is like the company he is wont to keep.” - Euripides
You shouldn’t be so comfortable with that assumption of innocence.
All the more reason to be screaming at Democrats that they risk losing support if they maintain their diplomatic stances. They’ve grown too complacent in their support from leftists, and the chickens finally seem to be coming home to roost.
Does it make sense to lower the bar for republicans simply because they are honest about their brutality?
And if we sit out we lose the ability to influence the situation at all to parties who are comfortable just outright killing off entire peoples. Sticking our nose in the air and saying “We won’t be part of it” is not the solution you might think it is.
I’m not making an assumption of innocence, I’m acknowledging that without experience my take on the subject should be considered that of a layman, just like any take that isn’t born out of a complete picture of the situation. On the contrary to your accusation of a simplistic view that the US has pure intentions, what I’m saying is that short of a degree or several years experience dealing with this conflict first hand, any conclusions a person might jump to about this situation in the first place are going to be simple and incomplete.
I’m not insinuating we should trust the government to handle it in a way that doesn’t perpetuate genocide, because they clearly aren’t doing that. I’m just pointing out that the public zeitgeist on this conflict is based on knee jerk reactions to complex political moves.
The prime example of that being leftists angry at Biden for not pressing a “stop genocide button” that functionally doesn’t exist.
I’m with you on that, but there doesn’t seem to be an easy way out that doesn’t rely on the democratic platform just magically changing. Is it worth handing over our democracy to a party that might well destroy it just to teach the other party a lesson?
Only an idiot would abstain or vote for Trump all because of this issue. Biden is a shit president, but he’s worlds better than Trump has been, or could ever be.
This said, I agree that OP can fuck off with some of that language. The protests need to call Biden out. Bonus points for calling both candidates out, though. They’ve both chosen the wrong side of this.
Voters choose candidates for idiotic reasons all the time, it’s poor campaign strategy to assume otherwise.
If you don’t do what I want to improve something I care about, I will bring about a worse outcome for the thing I care about.
Logic.
“I” won’t be bringing any such worse outcome, Biden will be bringing it about himself by losing.
I’m talking about these people who would otherwise vote for him. The ones who will, by not voting for Biden, increase the changes of a worse outcome for something they claim to care about.
But hey, their conscience will be clear not having voted for Biden, right?
These people are either:
And Biden’s will be clear for being able to blame them for his loss, I assume?
Blaming someone for an election loss has nothing to do with morals or conscience so I don’t follow.
Conscience has something to do with guilt and blame, doesn’t it? It at least deals with the attribution of harm, and my point is that attributing the ‘increase in chances of harm’ to protestors a bit misplaced, since it’s Biden who has the agency to act against Israel, not the protestors.
The protestors are simply modeling the behavior they want to see from Biden: withhold support (or threaten to do so) from Israel until some concession is made. Either Israel will relent or we’ll reduce their ability to continue their assault on Gaza.
Criticism of Biden is not endorsement of trump. The people protesting are likely progressives who hate trump.
Criticize him all you want, but please wait until the election is over? Pretty please? Last thing we need is people lashing out and not voting at all, that’s how you get another 4 years of trump
Oh I will still vote Biden despite being seriously pissed at him.
Thank you.
When he’s in, criticize all you want but right now bigger issues and such
I have sent him a few letters already, and will not plan to stop. I have also told Obama the ways I was disappointed in him.
Yeah I don’t think that matter much, it’s not like he will be reading these letters himself. But you do you, for sure.
Damn and here I was letting genocide distract me from the election cycle. Boy is my face red.
I agree that everyone should vote Biden in November, but no… this can’t wait until then. Biden needs to address this, and he’s absolutely earning the nickname we see here by failing to do so.
He didn’t start this mess, and we probably can’t abandon Israel as an ally for a myriad of tactical and political reasons… But we can and should address the weapons being sent over regularly.
I agree it can’t wait, but it will have to. You forget that Biden amhas more things to take into account than just our opinions on it, right as we may be. If he kicks the Israeli government he might disenfranchise the Jewish community who then may decide not to vote for him, then Trump it is and bye bye Palestinians. It must suck to be in his place.
Anyway, I would not immediately assume that Biden is loving this genocide, he likely has many things to consider
Blue Maga : even more deranged that the original with a twist.
Disgusting
The United States is funding and arming a genocide against the Gazans. And you diminish this abomination.
We Americans deserve what we get
Did you miss the entire point there?
Seriously, THAT is the part you picked up? Read, you fool…
Disgusting
Russia is funding and arming a fascist movement against the Americans. And you diminish this abimination. /s
Man, it’s so easy to make someone sound bad when you purposefully misrepresent what they said. You didn’t actually engage with them. You only tried to make them sound evil, even though they’re advocating for protecting Palestinians as much as we possibly can. Please stop this garbage.
Please read the comment and explain how the person was “advocating for protecting Palestinians as much as we possibly can.”
To me it sounds like they don’t care about them at all, and see them as nothing more than an inconvenience in getting Biden reelected. Which is the mainstream Dem position
Comment is reposted below for your convenience:
"As “funny” as this might be, if you don’t fucking vote Biden you’re likely voting for a huge world wide change off a cliff. If Trump wins, then your precious Gaza will be wiped out or whatever similar words he used. And that is just the start. His claims, he wants to be a dictator, the 2025 document basically wishes the US to become Gilead, and lots more fun stuff.
Seriously, maybe this might be slightly panicky, but these are things that are in all seriousness claimed by the Republican party and Trump. That is what you will be voting for if you don’t vote Biden , so how about you shut the . up for now about this, at least until after the elections?
On a side note, I can guarantee you that these groups end up receiving funding from Russia and whatnot. Not that they do that willingly or knowingly, but with Russia continuously meddling in US politics, you can rest assured that Putin won’t sit by while this is happening, he needs his useful idiot in US power."
Seriously, these are the people I’m supposed to have solidarity with? They treat dogs better than they treat Palestinians. Fuck all of that.
https://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/maddowblog/trumps-hardline-position-us-policy-gaza-matters-rcna150391
Cool, now do Biden’s hard-line position!! Only one of these guys is currently in power with his foot on the genocide gas pedal and nobody here seems to want to do anything to stop it! Absolute horse shit if you ask me
Do you prefer genocide or more genocide and the end of democracy? That’s where we are at right now.
Like what, vote for Trump? There’s at least a small hope that biden gets fed up with Israel’s shit, trump fully supports it.
Explain how it is that this is actually where we are at.
And, if this is actually where we are at, then why should any of us want to maintain such a system? Shouldn’t a system that is reliant on genocide be dismantled? Isn’t that the entire point of the Nuremberg Trials?
Wow, sounds like a shitty failure of a system that I would be an absolute rube to support in any way.
The answer surely isn’t “vote for joe no matter what he does, no line is too far”
Question, who should someone who wants to end the genocide, vote for? What is your suggestion? How and why would that vote change the situation for the better? How likelihood is the desired outcome?
You should be protesting against the war and show solidarity with others doing the same
Panic posting about protestors endangering an election is counter effectual; if you want to help you can start by keeping your mouth shut about the election in the context of the protest.
The answer is “vote for Joe despite him not doing more to aid Gaza, because the only alternative is far, far worse”.
Why should anyone support the continuation of a system that offers this as the best available choice?