Yea I remember as well. They all vote republican. There is no reality where libertarians come out on the right side of Bush. History has shown you stupid. Keep trying to re-write it.
They definitely don’t “all vote republican”. And I’m. Not sure which bush you’re talking about but if you mean patriot act Bush… You’re kidding yourself.
This day and age I have no way of knowing if your some troll account or not, but in the event that you’re not: libertarian praxis is awful. But there are a ton of folks like myself and others who realize to vote in 2028 there’s only one way this can go. Literally the article. You’ll also find a lot of libertarians who are in favor of things like UBI and a strong social safety net.
And it’s the same as it was when we had gay marriage as tent pole when Democrat cantidate were equivicating: we’ll do the right thing, but no one gets to dictate that because the current situation is not purely a function of external factors. Two things are true: the democratic party utterly failed, and it’s still our best hope for the future.
Yeah, I’ll always say “libertarian ‘with a little l’”. There’s some great principles there, and certainly a much better (if only because it’s stated) framework to work from, but I do laugh at the memes.
Sometimes it goes right. It was a pleasant surprise that Trump got yelled down so much, but it’s an embarrassment he was there in the first place.
And it’s borderline copy pasta for me, but abortion is an odd one. Strictly because if you genuinely belive a zygote is a human… Well… The rest doesn’t matter. Most people I know DONT belive that, including me, but that will always be the crux of things. But the sort of libertarian “default” is “if I can’t say, I certainly can’t use a gun to force your decision, therefore your independent decision should be protected”.
I mean… I still love em but you don’t have to look far for crazy. That’s the “little l” part. You can absolutely take the best and leave the worst. One of the benefits of our electoral system is if you’re not in a swing state, youre “protest vote” really does matter. None of those folks will win, but notes will be taken. There’s also campaign finance dollars that free up.
And I cannot emphasize the if enough. With what’s coming up you have to weigh that against your certainty your state’s delegates will still ensure a 2028 election. Fun stuff.
So here’s the thing: I don’t need to, but you do. Anyone I still want in my party understands how 2024 needs to go. Meanwhile Democrats can’t get out of their own way, have a spotty history at best, and continually fail at 85% of the promises that get them elected.
They were given the softest pitches in history, barley squeaked out a win in 2020, and fours years later they’re, somehow, our best hope at getting back to arguing about the best way towards real progress. There is no choice in 2024, it’s that simple.
I can dig it. But you’re talking about party and I’m talking about policy.
The dems have a habit of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. But that’s separate from lying the country into multiple wars. It’s separate from the history of conservatism that existed for decades. It’s separate from the “tea party” and all the dirty money that ever gave libertarians air time in the first place.
Libertarianism is an argument begging for validity without any actual civil accomplishments it can point to. Dems can point to the civil rights movement and conservatism point against it. So where do you point? You can keep saying how shitty dems are at getting elected. My response is how shitty libertarians are when they’re in office.
That’s totally fair. I’ll fully concede a huge part of why libertarians have a great track record on principles is because they’ve never BEEN in a position to compromise on them.
But you ask about track record, you mention multiple wars, you could have mentioned a ton of other things dem shot their foot off at…
We need more than two parties. Desperately. We don’t have it so it’s not worth talking about, but it doesn’t change the need. But at the end of the day, the thing I can never get past, despite agreeing with dems on a huge number of things, is there’s no guiding principle.
Libertarian NAP has a boatload of issues… But it’s a starting point to be worked from that supercedes the party. It’s incomprehensible to me running a cantidate who voted to get us into those wars, who opposed gay marriage, and we haven’t even gotten to Biden yet.
Again, there is no choice in 2024. But the democratic party is entirely without principle. There is no way to shift it internally because it has no internal framework that lasts. I pray to a God I don’t belive in it gets us through, but it also got us into this mess and for that it should go.
You talk about dems shooting their foot off. I’m talking about conservatives shooting the face off the country. Libertarians don’t offer a better direction compared to “bomb bomb bomb Iran” they are Lee Atwater let off the chain. Libertarianism is just conservatism let loose there is a chain of rhetoric linking this all to terrible actions.
This is a way better conversation than I was anticipating and let’s take a minute to agree on the fact that shits fucked, we’d like it unfucked, and at least short term there’s only one way to make that happen.
The view for most of libertarians I get along with would be that no, conservatives didn’t blow THEIR face off… They blew OUR face off, like all of us.
Long term, there’s a ton to disagree on, but dems are going to need to take friends where they can get them. There are a ton of situations that further both interests that are low hanging fruits, but it’s important to acknowledge that, because the party has a lot to answer for.
Again, I cannot wait for the day we’re haggling about details. But the dems have entirely lost relevance, save the fact that, somehow, they’re our only hope against literal fascism. And Im just going to say it again because election interference is a thing: Joe Biden needs to win this election. But AOC is going to need to make some friends that will feel odd to the party.
Yea I remember as well. They all vote republican. There is no reality where libertarians come out on the right side of Bush. History has shown you stupid. Keep trying to re-write it.
They definitely don’t “all vote republican”. And I’m. Not sure which bush you’re talking about but if you mean patriot act Bush… You’re kidding yourself.
This day and age I have no way of knowing if your some troll account or not, but in the event that you’re not: libertarian praxis is awful. But there are a ton of folks like myself and others who realize to vote in 2028 there’s only one way this can go. Literally the article. You’ll also find a lot of libertarians who are in favor of things like UBI and a strong social safety net.
And it’s the same as it was when we had gay marriage as tent pole when Democrat cantidate were equivicating: we’ll do the right thing, but no one gets to dictate that because the current situation is not purely a function of external factors. Two things are true: the democratic party utterly failed, and it’s still our best hope for the future.
My local libertarians helped set up pro-choice protests downtown and some of the younger guys did security for the speakers.
Yeah, I’ll always say “libertarian ‘with a little l’”. There’s some great principles there, and certainly a much better (if only because it’s stated) framework to work from, but I do laugh at the memes.
Sometimes it goes right. It was a pleasant surprise that Trump got yelled down so much, but it’s an embarrassment he was there in the first place.
And it’s borderline copy pasta for me, but abortion is an odd one. Strictly because if you genuinely belive a zygote is a human… Well… The rest doesn’t matter. Most people I know DONT belive that, including me, but that will always be the crux of things. But the sort of libertarian “default” is “if I can’t say, I certainly can’t use a gun to force your decision, therefore your independent decision should be protected”.
Yeah. At the 2020 state convention we had a 60ish year old dude stand up to remind libertarian christians to vote no on the abortion shit here.
The internet fucks up perceptions of libertarians to a large degree.
And, yeah. I think the progressive left has issues assuming the worst of people they disagree with.
I mean… I still love em but you don’t have to look far for crazy. That’s the “little l” part. You can absolutely take the best and leave the worst. One of the benefits of our electoral system is if you’re not in a swing state, youre “protest vote” really does matter. None of those folks will win, but notes will be taken. There’s also campaign finance dollars that free up.
And I cannot emphasize the if enough. With what’s coming up you have to weigh that against your certainty your state’s delegates will still ensure a 2028 election. Fun stuff.
Keep trying…
So here’s the thing: I don’t need to, but you do. Anyone I still want in my party understands how 2024 needs to go. Meanwhile Democrats can’t get out of their own way, have a spotty history at best, and continually fail at 85% of the promises that get them elected.
They were given the softest pitches in history, barley squeaked out a win in 2020, and fours years later they’re, somehow, our best hope at getting back to arguing about the best way towards real progress. There is no choice in 2024, it’s that simple.
But I am not the one that needs to “keep trying”.
I can dig it. But you’re talking about party and I’m talking about policy.
The dems have a habit of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. But that’s separate from lying the country into multiple wars. It’s separate from the history of conservatism that existed for decades. It’s separate from the “tea party” and all the dirty money that ever gave libertarians air time in the first place.
Libertarianism is an argument begging for validity without any actual civil accomplishments it can point to. Dems can point to the civil rights movement and conservatism point against it. So where do you point? You can keep saying how shitty dems are at getting elected. My response is how shitty libertarians are when they’re in office.
That’s totally fair. I’ll fully concede a huge part of why libertarians have a great track record on principles is because they’ve never BEEN in a position to compromise on them.
But you ask about track record, you mention multiple wars, you could have mentioned a ton of other things dem shot their foot off at…
We need more than two parties. Desperately. We don’t have it so it’s not worth talking about, but it doesn’t change the need. But at the end of the day, the thing I can never get past, despite agreeing with dems on a huge number of things, is there’s no guiding principle.
Libertarian NAP has a boatload of issues… But it’s a starting point to be worked from that supercedes the party. It’s incomprehensible to me running a cantidate who voted to get us into those wars, who opposed gay marriage, and we haven’t even gotten to Biden yet.
Again, there is no choice in 2024. But the democratic party is entirely without principle. There is no way to shift it internally because it has no internal framework that lasts. I pray to a God I don’t belive in it gets us through, but it also got us into this mess and for that it should go.
You talk about dems shooting their foot off. I’m talking about conservatives shooting the face off the country. Libertarians don’t offer a better direction compared to “bomb bomb bomb Iran” they are Lee Atwater let off the chain. Libertarianism is just conservatism let loose there is a chain of rhetoric linking this all to terrible actions.
This is a way better conversation than I was anticipating and let’s take a minute to agree on the fact that shits fucked, we’d like it unfucked, and at least short term there’s only one way to make that happen.
The view for most of libertarians I get along with would be that no, conservatives didn’t blow THEIR face off… They blew OUR face off, like all of us.
Long term, there’s a ton to disagree on, but dems are going to need to take friends where they can get them. There are a ton of situations that further both interests that are low hanging fruits, but it’s important to acknowledge that, because the party has a lot to answer for.
Again, I cannot wait for the day we’re haggling about details. But the dems have entirely lost relevance, save the fact that, somehow, they’re our only hope against literal fascism. And Im just going to say it again because election interference is a thing: Joe Biden needs to win this election. But AOC is going to need to make some friends that will feel odd to the party.