Unless I’m misreading this whole exchange, I believe what’s being discussed is the modern day Mexican border, and the holding camps in which families are sometimes seperated. They have conditions which actively lead to people dying. Children and small women especially.
They aren’t actively designed as a concentration camp, but in smaller numbers that’s the end result sometimes. The problem in this conversation I see is that terrible inhuman conditions which do lead to death by the thousands each year is being compared to a place like auschwitz, which killed people by the millions each year intentionally by design.
What you’re linking is true, and it was terrible, but it was also close to 80 years ago. The Japanese today have no issue with coming to America.
So this whole thread to me seems like 5 different people, all shouting 5 different arguementive points, none of which corelate with each other in any way.
Concentration and extermination camps are two different things (and Auschwitz illustrated that clearly after 42 and the Birkenau camp).
A very quick glance at what happened at the US-Mexico border makes me think the camps there fit the bill, or at least the usual definition of the word (basically, indiscrinate mass internment).
I would say that any time a group is targeted, deprived of freedom and moved into brutal conditions, comparisons about exactly how bad a given version of a concentration camp is kinda ignores the point that they’re fucking wrong by nature. They are a stain on humanity, period.
And I actually include prisons in the United States as morally equivalent since there’s a disproportionate amount of minorities targeted the be put in there. But at least they had the pretence of due process, so it isn’t the same thing.
And make no mistake, the “holding” facilities were indeed intended to treat humans like filth. And they’re designed in a way that has led to rampant death.
The only reason that deaths haven’t reached genocide levels is no active killing, it’s all passive so that people can ignore or and pretend they aren’t responsible for each and every death that does occur. Any citizen of the United States bears the onus of what w.e did to the Japanese citizens in ww2, and we bear the onus of what has happened, and is still happening to our fellow human beings in this hellholes currently.
What I’m doing here is expressing my disgust with so-called activists and militants that claim to want serious change, but will not risk anything to do it. And yes, it is impossible to do alone, it takes feet on the ground, willing to take any action necessary, and that’s risky. Every attempt to organize a serious effort that I could find failed because nobody was willing to take action. They wanted to fuck around, have a little circle jerk about how bad it was, and go home.
We, as a population, have stood by while our fellow man have been treated worse than we treat animals. Which is pretty bad, if you’ve ever seen industrial farming.
One million, one thousand, one hundred, even one is too many.
Nobody was ever defending them, or the conditions they’re put in. But there’s a difference between something like an actual concentration camp, which sole purpose is to kill ALL that come into it, and something like the modern day holding prisons along the mexican border.
The purpose of those prisons along the border is to dehumanize people, torture them, beat them, and then release them. That is the intended purpose by those that built them. Some people die in those conditions. It is not the intent, but it does happen.
Nobody is argueing that we’re in favor of these prisons. Yes they are awful. They DO kill thousands each year. Nobody is defending that.
I’m just saying in this world both the left and the right are taking the most extreme version of events, try to pass them off as reality, and then wonder why the other side sees them as insane.
Conceptually speaking, an actual concentration camp intentionally kills in less than a half hour what these holding prisons kill in a year. Millions of Jews died in just over 4 years. Something like 40% of their total population at the time. Meanwhile, you could add up 30 years of the border prisons, and they maybe have killed 1% of the population.
I would love to see an easier legal way for mexicans to come to America. I’ve heard the average wait for the legal process to work is 28 years. I’d rather they just fill out some forms, prove that they know the country and can speak passable english, and stamp their entry card. But until that happens, they’re going to try to cross the boarder illegally because it’s their only option.
The only way to remove those prisons, is to basically gut this entire country, and rebuild the culture. We need the culture we were taught exists as kids in school. The America that has not only tolerance, but embracement for other races and peoples. The melting pot of oppertunity is how I was taught this country behaved. Instead I’ve seen racism so thick that a white woman yelled at a native american woman to go back to her country without a hint of irony.
But all of this happens, because half this country WANTS it to happen. And why? Because they’re fed batshit insane stories by their media that tells them we’re all insane for wanting mexicans to become citizens. Then they see you saying that a holding prison is the same as what happens at concentration camps, and it adds to the legitimacy that their opposing side is insane.
Well the thing about lying and manipulation is, the big lie relies on credibility. If I tell you 5 small truths that you already know, and they reinforce your beliefs, then I can tell you a medium lie, and it’s believable. Because if I have a history of telling the truth, then I’ve developed trust with you that you can believe me when I say something you’re not sure of. You don’t know if that medium lie is true or not, but I’ve never steered you wrong before. So even if the medium lie isn’t true, you see it as an inaccuracy rather than a lie.
So these right wing news outlets sprinkle just enough truth, mixed in with reenforcing their own already set opinions that now they can tell small lies all day, and their base won’t even question them. Because they see them as a credible source.
But then they see you saying that a holding cell with inhuman conditions is the same as actual concentration camps, and it becomes very easy for them to see you as insane. Therefore you must be lying, because their news source said you’re lying. So the conditions must not be that bad. And that becomes the narrative. One side vs an opposing side, because both sides are drifting farther and farther apart. Unable to see eye to eye. Both sides acting insane. Neither side willing to comprimise.
And welcome to the modern day. Where reality doesn’t matter as long as corporate interests pay less taxes, and pay less wages. So we ALL suffer.
Man, I truly appreciate the effort and passion you put out there. That’s some beautiful humanity inside you.
The only thing I can say that doesn’t insult what you put out is that, as wonderful as it would be for your hopes to come true, I simply don’t believe it is possible without tearing down the country built on slavery, oligarchy, and sheer hubris, and starting fresh. The system isn’t just broken, it was never whole.
Again, I am so glad to see someone put that much thought into a response to my sheer disgust at the world, and bring hope into the subject. I can’t debate the fine points of it without dishonoring the intent there. So I’ll just say thank you.
Unless I’m misreading this whole exchange, I believe what’s being discussed is the modern day Mexican border, and the holding camps in which families are sometimes seperated. They have conditions which actively lead to people dying. Children and small women especially.
They aren’t actively designed as a concentration camp, but in smaller numbers that’s the end result sometimes. The problem in this conversation I see is that terrible inhuman conditions which do lead to death by the thousands each year is being compared to a place like auschwitz, which killed people by the millions each year intentionally by design.
What you’re linking is true, and it was terrible, but it was also close to 80 years ago. The Japanese today have no issue with coming to America.
So this whole thread to me seems like 5 different people, all shouting 5 different arguementive points, none of which corelate with each other in any way.
…so what are we even doing here?
Concentration and extermination camps are two different things (and Auschwitz illustrated that clearly after 42 and the Birkenau camp).
A very quick glance at what happened at the US-Mexico border makes me think the camps there fit the bill, or at least the usual definition of the word (basically, indiscrinate mass internment).
I would say that any time a group is targeted, deprived of freedom and moved into brutal conditions, comparisons about exactly how bad a given version of a concentration camp is kinda ignores the point that they’re fucking wrong by nature. They are a stain on humanity, period.
And I actually include prisons in the United States as morally equivalent since there’s a disproportionate amount of minorities targeted the be put in there. But at least they had the pretence of due process, so it isn’t the same thing.
And make no mistake, the “holding” facilities were indeed intended to treat humans like filth. And they’re designed in a way that has led to rampant death.
The only reason that deaths haven’t reached genocide levels is no active killing, it’s all passive so that people can ignore or and pretend they aren’t responsible for each and every death that does occur. Any citizen of the United States bears the onus of what w.e did to the Japanese citizens in ww2, and we bear the onus of what has happened, and is still happening to our fellow human beings in this hellholes currently.
What I’m doing here is expressing my disgust with so-called activists and militants that claim to want serious change, but will not risk anything to do it. And yes, it is impossible to do alone, it takes feet on the ground, willing to take any action necessary, and that’s risky. Every attempt to organize a serious effort that I could find failed because nobody was willing to take action. They wanted to fuck around, have a little circle jerk about how bad it was, and go home.
We, as a population, have stood by while our fellow man have been treated worse than we treat animals. Which is pretty bad, if you’ve ever seen industrial farming.
One million, one thousand, one hundred, even one is too many.
Nobody was ever defending them, or the conditions they’re put in. But there’s a difference between something like an actual concentration camp, which sole purpose is to kill ALL that come into it, and something like the modern day holding prisons along the mexican border.
The purpose of those prisons along the border is to dehumanize people, torture them, beat them, and then release them. That is the intended purpose by those that built them. Some people die in those conditions. It is not the intent, but it does happen.
Nobody is argueing that we’re in favor of these prisons. Yes they are awful. They DO kill thousands each year. Nobody is defending that.
I’m just saying in this world both the left and the right are taking the most extreme version of events, try to pass them off as reality, and then wonder why the other side sees them as insane.
Conceptually speaking, an actual concentration camp intentionally kills in less than a half hour what these holding prisons kill in a year. Millions of Jews died in just over 4 years. Something like 40% of their total population at the time. Meanwhile, you could add up 30 years of the border prisons, and they maybe have killed 1% of the population.
I would love to see an easier legal way for mexicans to come to America. I’ve heard the average wait for the legal process to work is 28 years. I’d rather they just fill out some forms, prove that they know the country and can speak passable english, and stamp their entry card. But until that happens, they’re going to try to cross the boarder illegally because it’s their only option.
The only way to remove those prisons, is to basically gut this entire country, and rebuild the culture. We need the culture we were taught exists as kids in school. The America that has not only tolerance, but embracement for other races and peoples. The melting pot of oppertunity is how I was taught this country behaved. Instead I’ve seen racism so thick that a white woman yelled at a native american woman to go back to her country without a hint of irony.
But all of this happens, because half this country WANTS it to happen. And why? Because they’re fed batshit insane stories by their media that tells them we’re all insane for wanting mexicans to become citizens. Then they see you saying that a holding prison is the same as what happens at concentration camps, and it adds to the legitimacy that their opposing side is insane.
Well the thing about lying and manipulation is, the big lie relies on credibility. If I tell you 5 small truths that you already know, and they reinforce your beliefs, then I can tell you a medium lie, and it’s believable. Because if I have a history of telling the truth, then I’ve developed trust with you that you can believe me when I say something you’re not sure of. You don’t know if that medium lie is true or not, but I’ve never steered you wrong before. So even if the medium lie isn’t true, you see it as an inaccuracy rather than a lie.
So these right wing news outlets sprinkle just enough truth, mixed in with reenforcing their own already set opinions that now they can tell small lies all day, and their base won’t even question them. Because they see them as a credible source.
But then they see you saying that a holding cell with inhuman conditions is the same as actual concentration camps, and it becomes very easy for them to see you as insane. Therefore you must be lying, because their news source said you’re lying. So the conditions must not be that bad. And that becomes the narrative. One side vs an opposing side, because both sides are drifting farther and farther apart. Unable to see eye to eye. Both sides acting insane. Neither side willing to comprimise.
And welcome to the modern day. Where reality doesn’t matter as long as corporate interests pay less taxes, and pay less wages. So we ALL suffer.
Man, I truly appreciate the effort and passion you put out there. That’s some beautiful humanity inside you.
The only thing I can say that doesn’t insult what you put out is that, as wonderful as it would be for your hopes to come true, I simply don’t believe it is possible without tearing down the country built on slavery, oligarchy, and sheer hubris, and starting fresh. The system isn’t just broken, it was never whole.
Again, I am so glad to see someone put that much thought into a response to my sheer disgust at the world, and bring hope into the subject. I can’t debate the fine points of it without dishonoring the intent there. So I’ll just say thank you.
Hey that’s great.