Crazy how the choice is between “everything the same with mild change (maybe)” and “everything horrible with the world”.
The choice is between having an opportunity to make a difference and being actively prevented from doing so.
Elaborate
A Trump administration will jail opponents, accelerate oil and gas drilling, and help to destroy the world that much faster.
We don’t have any chance to improve things if they win one more time.
Want a better world? It might be possible to still build one. You can’t look at Joe Biden and say “Eh, not good enough.”
If his plans aren’t enough for your tastes, organize and do better. Inspire others around you.
It’s not gonna be easy, and it might not even be possible. But each person who just gives up makes it that much harder for everyone else.
Me, I’m 50. I don’t have a ton of hope. But I’d like to still have a chance to leave a world to another generation that isn’t completely overrun by fascism.
Brazil pushed back. So did France and the UK. We CANNOT just give up.
Ah alright, for some reason when I read the comment I wasn’t sure who you meant represented which. I’m not American but I’m definitely with you.
Brazil and France pushed back like we pushed back in 2020.
Republicans learned what stopped them and installed people/will install people who will make sure we cannot rebuke them again. The DNC only learns the lessons they want to learn like “incumbent presidents should be run again” and ignore lessons like “the polls are fucking horrible and we literally need a massive lead in polls just for us to squeak by in the general election.” Because every fucking election is like that… Nice leads in the polls and the outcome turns out horrible…
We aren’t giving up. It was the DNC that gave up. Start putting the blame squarely where it belongs.
Okay. I blame you.
Blaming those with the least power for not bending the knee to the “leader” the powerfull have imposed on them instead of blaming those with the most power for not putting forward somebody worthy of the loyalty of the rest is a pretty interesting take for somebody posting in a supposedly Progressive forum.
It’s been four years and nobody stepped up.
Nobody said they wanted to be the successor. They didn’t build a campaign and start doing press tours.
We have No Labels and Brain Worms. That’s it. The progressives did not try to field a candidate, and now you’re saying there’s a boot on your neck.
Either fight or keep complaining. Bitching online is not progressive.
I’m trying to wake some of you up to the reality that we need to be united and getting a shitload of ‘Meh, whatever.’
Extremely hard to believe thats your progressive take.
Whatever helps you sleep at night sweetheart 😘
Edit: There’s some legalese that the DNC is shook about, so fair enough to be worried about Republicans and election shenanigans.
If his plans aren’t enough for your tastes, organize and do better. Inspire others around you.This would be a valid point, if the DNC wasn’t trying to force a primary confirmation vote early, in order to ‘lock in’ Biden. Despite Biden welcoming challengers to make a play to delegates at the convention.I.e. “actively prevented from doing so”Wait, I thought the DNC wanted him to give up
Might be irrelevant given the latest on Biden dropping maybe, but this is still the official line:_
“no voting will begin before August 1.” They add that the vote is set to happen before the in-person Democratic National Convention that starts Aug. 19
They’ve now explained the nuance and reasoning, which does change things a fair bit
In June, Ohio passed a bill to move its deadline from Aug. 7 to Sept. 1. But because that law technically does not take effect until Sept. 1, the DNC said they are keeping their timeline of a pre-convention virtual roll call in place due to concern of litigation. Republican Secretary of State Frank LaRose suggested earlier this month that Sept. 1 deadline to certify a candidate would stand.
The latter is already the case, though?
There’s an election in November, so, no.
If Trump gets what Project 2025 wants him to have, SCOTUS will repeal term limits, and he’ll challenge the results of the next election using his party-loyal Article F State Department.
He’ll be “President” the same way Putin is “President.”
“but at least we didn’t have to hear biden stutter anymore, so it’s worth it” - crowd that wants their grandchildren growing up under project 2025.
What do you mean “there’s an election in November?”
The results of that contest have been written on the wall at least as far back as 2015 when the DNC put us on this course.
The incumbent won’t step down, so the choice is between Trump or the guy that is expected to lose, which isn’t a choice at all.
Yea, we should definitely give up. Might as well buy a gun and pack it in right buddy?
I support a wide range of resistance tactics and I’m not about to tell people to give up, but I will say don’t organize online. Do it in person and leave your phone in another room…
I love getting downvoted for telling people to organize and not to let the FBI listen in. /s
This country is so doomed.
Literally everything the Left predicted in 2016 is happening right now and you are making fun of it as if it’s not that big of a deal.
Cope.
Making fun of it? Wtf are you talking about?
Trump was “expected to lose” the 2016 election. Far more than Biden currently is
The 2016 election fell within the margin of error of the polls. Don’t act like Hillary was a shoe-in, nobody who was paying attention was surprised after the shit she and the DNC got up to in the primary.
You do not get to insist that everything be the way you want it to be.
Grow up and use the power you actually have rather than spamming your discontent everywhere.
Work for what you want to happen. Or just roll over and invite the fascists in. Those are your two choices, and you’re saying the first one isn’t a choice.
That says A WHOLE LOT about you.
You do not get to insist that everything be the way you want it to be.
It’s a free country. I can insist on whatever I want, just like you are free to ignore me.
Grow up and use the power you actually have rather than spamming your discontent everywhere.
I’m almost 40 and I’ve been banging on this drum since Bush v. Gore. If you don’t like having a political conversation with someone who demands better from the Democrats and our government then you’re going to want to stop engaging with politics entirely.
Work for what you want to happen.
I’m trying, but people like you keep telling me to resign myself to Biden’s inevitable loss because we can’t do any better.
Or just roll over and invite the fascists in. Those are your two choices, and you’re saying the first one isn’t a choice.
Of course there isn’t a choice, we either vote for Biden or we get Trump. That’s not a choice, that’s a hostage situation.
That says A WHOLE LOT about you.
Precisely.
You’re cooking brother. Keep it up 🤙
Cooking meth
I don’t have to cook, I’ve been perscribed Legal Meth for Fidgety Kids™ since 1st grade.
At least with everything the same we maintain the chance to turn it into “make everything better”, as easy as it is to get disillusioned with the system at present, nobody can deny that it’s a lot easier to achieve anything within than a defacto fascist autocracy
The amount of change we’ll see will be directly related to congressional control. SCOTUS Justices aren’t going to impeach themselves. AOC can write anything she wants, but it won’t pass a vote with congressional minority.
It’s the middle class who won’t be.
It’s the working poor who won’t be.Why’d she say “working class” twice?
Because they didn’t want to say lower class, so they say working poor. The middle class has been gutted and demolished
The idea I was alluding to is that the distinction between “lower class” and “middle class” has always been fictional. It exists only to drive a wedge between working-class folks, for the benefit of the owner class.
But if she didn’t specify middle class, those who think of themselves as middle class would think they were going to be okay.
Middle class then: Wealthy people who didn’t hold noble titles
Middle class now: I’m embarrassed to call myself working class
deleted by creator
She forgot pre-existing conditions. Remember, ACA is the only thing that keeps those covered. Diabetes diagnosed now? Your cancer comes back? You have an auto immune disorder like MS?
She forgot social security. Even without Project 2025 Trump had repeatedly said he wants it gone. All that FICA tax paid never to be seen again. Also, can your parents live without it? Or will they have to move in with you now? Or are you still living with them and you both lose your roof?
bigger thing is no surprise billing came directly out of bidens administration. that and the non compete thing are big for me.
Biden earned my vote with those reforms and by capping the price on insulin. People don’t realize how many millions of diabetics who are working poor and massively fucked by the manufacturers - they can literally set whatever price they want, because it’s peoples fucking lives otherwise.
mind boggling. and these whiny so-called progressives that are going to put trump back in power? guh
Oh yeah. Having someone come into the Urgent Care or ED because of a tightness in the chest and shortness of breath because they had to choose between buying insulin and an asthma rescue inhaler this month.
There are also lots, and I do mean lots, of hospital beds taken up by uncontrolled diabetes. Some of it is flagrant “I don’t want to” in re to eating right and checking blood sugars, but the other half really is people who want to do their best with this trying diagnosis but cannot afford the test strips and medication every month so they ration out things that should never be rationed out or simply go without. There’s a ripple effect across all of heath care access with the fallout from it.
She doesn’t know about those things because she’s a Canadian.
Also forgot defense for Ukrakne
This is what I think every time I see someone on here haughtily saying that the Democrats need to EARN their vote. The Democrat politicians are wealthy and will be just fine if they’re voted out of office - it’s you and everyone else who isn’t wealthy that will be fucked over.
In other words, protest votes are an expression of privilege.
Absolutely.
I’m largely convinced most “dems” threatening to withhold their vote are bots and trolls.
This election is between two well known candidates with presidential records. There’s no earning. You’re either one side or the other.
They’re usually not self-declared Democrats. Some may be trolling, but there are plenty of people who don’t seem to understand how FTPT voting works, since they’re always incensed when it’s said that if they don’t vote for Biden, they’re helping Trump (with the assumption that Biden is less bad to them than Trump). That, or they just value feeling like they were morally correct more than real-world consequences.
Then that means that the vast majority of the Lemmy userbase, including the mods and admins, are bots and trolls.
Not disagreeing with you, just lamenting the absolute shitpile that the threaded Fediverse seems to be. I just wanted decentralized social media.
I’m going to vote but damn can we at least acknowledge how depressing it is to be stuck in this position to begin with? If 2016 wasn’t a wake up call I really don’t know how we can snap the Democratic Party out of this corporate controlled mediocrity.
how we can snap the Democratic Party out of this corporate controlled mediocrity.
You can’t “snap the Democratic Party out of this corporate controlled mediocrity” because “corporate controlled mediocrity” is the point.
What? You actually thought they “represented” you?
This. This election is Fascist Capitalism versus Fascist-Lite Capitalism, and any attempt to point to some minimal gains made via executive action (when the SC just killed Chevron Deference) since we can’t get actual change through Congress is whitewashing.
We literally cannot. We need a new party and we need to start making a lot of noise about that.
When Trump wins we need to kill the Democratic party entirely and start something new, but I have no idea how to get the money for that… The ultra wealthy that support Democrats aren’t going to help, they know the Democrats protect them…
All I know is there is no future for the Democratic party, or at least there really shouldn’t be…
We need a new party and we need to start making a lot of noise about that.
I’m still just thrown back to the 1968 convention, also in Chicago, when Dem voters made a bunch of noise and the Dem establishment dropped a giant police hammer on their heads.
This seems to be the political response to every outcry among Dem base voters. The conservative leaders are more gleeful when they unleash armies of police on your Gold Star Moms or your Palestinian protesters. But the liberal leaders are just as quick to put tanks in the streets and send SWAT in to start clubbing heads and filling prisons whenever your OWS types start getting out of line.
That’s utter bullshit. Cite your sources.
Democrats are quick to attack peaceful protests? The fuck they are.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tcklAKANtKM
Mayor Eric Adams unleashed the full force of the NYPD on Columbia student protesters.
You’ll find the same thing happening at UCLA under Gruesome Gavin.
Oh man, Eric Adams, former police officer who ran on the famously standard “Democratic” platform of tough-on-crime in New York City?
Glad you didn’t cite some ridiculous outlier.
Gavin and UCLA, I have no idea though. I know he’s a Dem player of note, and that as Governor of CA he has different set of factors to juggle, but I don’t know what they are or what happened at UCLA. If he fucked up, he fucked up. Eric Adams however, yeah no.
Don’t No True Scotsman just because a Democrat happened to also be a fascist.
When the water wars come for us, all the Democrats will be fascists.
Nope.
Being in NY and interested in the movement I watched as they were coming up with excuses to push them out and had the corpo media gleefully trot around saying “no one even knows what they want! They are just lazy and disorganized!”
Wiki entry on OWS zuccotti park:
"Shortly after midnight on November 15, 2011, the New York City Police Department gave protesters notice from the park’s owner to leave Zuccotti Park due to its purportedly unsanitary and hazardous conditions. The notice stated that they could return without sleeping bags, tarps or tents.[77][78] About an hour later, police in riot gear began removing protesters from the park, arresting some 200 people in the process, including a number of journalists.
On December 31, 2011, protesters started to re-occupy the park.[79] Police in riot gear started to clear out the park around 1:30 am. Sixty-eight people were arrested in connection with the event, including one accused by media of stabbing a police officer in the hand with a pair of scissors.[80]
When the Zuccotti Park encampment was closed, some former campers were allowed to sleep in local churches.[81] After the closure of the Zuccotti Park encampment, the movement turned its focus on occupying banks, corporate headquarters, board meetings, foreclosed homes, college and university campuses, and Wall Street itself. As of March 15, 2012, since its inception the Occupy Wall Street protests in New York City had cost the city an estimated $17 million in overtime fees to provide policing of protests and encampment inside Zuccotti Park.[82][83][84]
On March 17, 2012, Occupy Wall Street demonstrators attempted to mark the movement’s six-month anniversary by reoccupying Zuccotti Park. Protesters were soon cleared away by police, who made over 70 arrests.[85][86] On March 24, hundreds of OWS protesters marched from Zuccotti Park to Union Square in a demonstration against police violence.[87]
On September 17, 2012, protesters returned to Zuccotti Park to mark the first anniversary of the beginning of the occupation. Protesters blocked access to the New York Stock Exchange as well as other intersections in the area. This, along with several violations of Zuccotti Park rules, led police to surround groups of protesters, at times pulling protesters from the crowds to be arrested for blocking pedestrian traffic. There were 185 arrests across the city."
So - where’s “the democrats” being “they”?
Holy crap… what fairy tale alternative version of the US do you live in?
Or, how about push for Ranked Choice Voting and reform/remove the Electoral College. Let’s make voting actually count and let people vote for who they actually want, not a lesser of two evils.
Then and ONLY then can we get some other parties in the mix with a shot. Otherwise it’s going to be the same it’s always been, 3rd party loses under the flood of people voting for 1 of 2.
Those 2 goals are achievable, some states already have RCV. Let’s get it on the ballot everywhere and make it happen.
Wake up call for what? They won last election with a corporate candidate and have a decent chance of doing it this time too. Like the post says, they don’t care that much about losing, their life isn’t threatened by it.
The only thing that can be done is to keep on voting for the non-fascist candidate hoping that one day both of the main parties will present one that fits the category.
you should vote for Biden if you hate him, that way he dies while still working instead of enjoying his last years golfing and sun bathing under secret service protection
So your plan is to attack them with weapons. I mean, it might work I guess. Be careful.
Otherwise you have no plan. You do understand anyone can participate in the Democratic party and third-parties are guaranteed failure, right? What’s the genius solution then?
Otherwise you have no plan.
In other words… just like you. The person you are responding to is just not being dishonest about it.
I think the actual action is to engage with the democratic political process.
So yes, vote. But also go to town hall meetings, and park board meetings, and parent advisory council meetings. Write a letters to your representatives, and then go to one of their events and tell them what you think of their response.
More then that, engage in protests, demand politicians do better, and organize by any means possible
Howzabout supporting your local antifa group?
Voting for Biden/Dems isn’t much of a plan either, it’s just stalling. But you need to stall for something, you need something that you are buying time for.
In regard to third parties, my country has a different system, a parliamentary one (technically semi-presidential, but for the purposes of the topic, it’s parliamentary), but nevertheless, up until recently we had 2 major parties, and so far only one of the 2 ever won an election, and all my life I’ve often heard the argument of “useful vote” (“voting for someone else is a waste of your vote”) as a justification to vote for one of them, even from journalists and pundits. But the far right, for one reason or another, simply didn’t care about a “useful vote”, and just voted for who they wanted; that is why in our last elections, and for the first time since we’ve had elections, everyone was now talking about 3 choices for a useful vote.
I know it’s a different system, but the point of the story is that you are engaging in a self-fulfilling prophecy. Neither democrats nor republicans will ever want to change the system because it will hurt them. Voting blue instead of red is a stalling tactic to stop/delay the fascists, but it doesn’t actually solve anything.
So you’re not an American voter, and you’re going tell us how American politics works. Or should work.
Okay - pretty much any other time than the weeks prior to an existential election I’d be interested to talk about that. Right now is not that time however.
I don’t have some magical solution to the flaws of democracy, but any good solution needs to begin with ensuring that the population is politically educated
Then you’ve already lost in perpetuity.
You’re right of course, it’s just - we’ve been saying that for 50 years. The goal only ever gets farther away.
I never said it was realistic, all I said is that it’s the first step
It’s been the first step for 50 years though. Any thoughts as to how it could be implemented that haven’t already been tried?
Unlike before we have the Internet, all we need is one YouTuber that teaches political literacy to go big.
Okay!
Aaaaaannnnd . . . Go!
All those things are what i am voting to keep from happening. The name means squat to me. Its just a placeholder to keep thr fat orange fuck from usurping the place
If the Democrats ran Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man I’d rather vote for him than Trump.
That would be hilarious to see in a debate. Just let the felon run his mouth and wave implacably with a smile.
Except all those people will also be fine if Kamala Harris wins the presidency. And they won’t be if Biden loses it.
yes, but everyone is worried too many idiots won’t vote for her. it’s risky. those idiots have stupid reasons like “because she’s a woman” and they suck, but you can’t ignore them this time.
I think the best thing they can do is commit to one candidate. Doesn’t matter who. It could be a pig wearing lipstick. But they gotta commit. No changing their minds at the last minute. Sanders endorsed Biden. AOC endorsed Biden. They should run Biden.
Well no doubt that will be key. But I think that’ll actually work against Republicans. They think they’re being clever by dogwhistling racism and sexism, but people see through it and don’t want to be associated with it. Besides, it’s near-certain loss with Biden vs risky bet on Kamala.
This election is a choice between boring corporatists and 100% concentrated evil. Between someone who is indifferent and someone who has literally promised to make your lives SO MUCH worse in every possible way.
You had your adorable little protest non-vote in 2016, with your “Hillary Clinton just doesn’t ‘do it’ for me” and the result was Donald farking Trump. Don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good.
You had your adorable little protest non-vote in 2016, with your “Hillary Clinton just doesn’t ‘do it’ for me” and the result was Donald farking Trump.
Here is my problem with this mindset. I didn’t have “my adorable little protest non-vote”. I was energized and hopeful for Bernie’s campaign, but the Dem’s and their moderate voter base had their adorable little “Bernie couldn’t possibly win enough votes because Socialism, so you have to vote for our candidate that no one is excited about” push, so I sucked it up and voted for Hillary. And the result was Donald farking Trump. Because moderate Dem’s would rather have Trump than meet Progressives even half way in the middle.
And now here we are, with another run of a candidate that fails to inspire passion amongst his voter base, going against Donald Farking Trump. And once again, I’m being told that I need to vote for the Dem candidate that I mostly just disagree with less than Donald Farking Trump.
So when does it stop being the fault of progressives who get disillusioned with the status quo? When does the fault start to lay with the Dem’s and the moderate voters for preferring a Trump presidency over trying to meet the Progressive voting bloc halfway?
I’ll vote for Biden (again), and I absolutely recommend that everyone do so just to do damage mitigation, but I’m getting so tired of the blame game moderates try and run just to deflect legitimate criticisms of their lackluster candidates.
Edit: To any on the left that are feeling really jilted by comment’s like NutWrench’s, please try and ignore the bullshit blame Dem’s try to fling our way and remember that the key to long term success is solidarity, including with those who would blame and ridicule us. We need to play the hands we are dealt the best we can, and Biden is currently our “strongest” hand.
boring corporatists
Nothing boring about a 110 heat index or a river so slick with filth that the smell alone is hazardous to your health. Nevermind the sky-high electricity bills created by our energy-hungry AI industry or the enormous landfills choked with plastic waste or the privatized schools that serve up a McEducation for an exorbitant price.
There’s this baseline claim that Biden will keep the state of the country the same. But we’re not a fly trapped in amber, here. We’ve got infrastructure that’s still deteriorating despite the promise of Infrastructure Reinvestment. We’ve got grocery bills that are still rising despite the Inflation Reduction Act. We’ve got real estate consolidation in the residential and agricultural sectors that are steadily raising rents. We’ve got a finance industry that is dead set on forcing everyone onto a highly speculative cryptocurrency system. We’ve got war profiteers racking it in overseas while defense contractors at home sink billions into a militarized southern border.
This is under Biden. Yeah, sure, blah blah Trump worse. But our best case scenario still looking incredibly bleak.
We’ve got real estate consolidation in the residential and agricultural sectors that are steadily raising rents.
I’m so mad that buying land way out in the boonies and a pre built home depot
shedhouse to plop on it is literally the only way I see myself owning any shelter…My brother took this exact route and its not as easy or cheap as it sounds. Even their nicest sheds have a ton of work to be done to make them livable, and after that you’ll need even more expensive work to make them up to code for your state. Your best bet if you are serious is to find a plot of land with their water/sewage/electricity/postal address already there (and a driveway or gravel road too if you can, that was expensive and took months of paperwork for some reason)
Kinda figures… Every other route I could think of ended up with the same results “will cost close to a regular house anyway.” :/
The result wasn’t just Trump, it cost Roe V. Wade and the Supreme Court
And environmental regulation.
The problem is that Biden isn’t projecting “good”.
Republicans and interests in minors (pelling mistakes)
pelung mistak
That’s a typo, not a spelling mistake.
Then how about he just fucking retires instead of virtually guaranteeing a Trump win. We had this same shit in 2016 because “it’s her turn” and the polls during the primary said she wasn’t going to win against Trump, too.
God save us from politician’s egos.
If that’s your argument, you have to address the many, many polls which showed her defeating trump unquestionably. 97% favored her over trump, etc etc etc.
But yeah, whoever is running against trump for the Democrats will get my vote.
many polls which showed her defeating trump unquestionably.
And if we were counting actual votes, not the imaginary value of areas of abstract landmass, then it would have been accurate and we would have had a competent person with political experience in office for four years during a pandemic.
Who knows how that alternative history would have gone down. I can only assume that it would have been far better for our nation’s feelings and attitude, which is arguably far more important than even policy. A strong, morally solid population votes in everyone’s best interest, a scared and isolated population votes for whatever seems to give them comfort.
That was the story for a while. But in October there was a massive surge back for Trump.
Gee i wonder what happened in October 2016?
“I was sure she was gonna win” said Comey.
“Ooops.” he added.
Literally voting for a wet paper bag would be better for those groups than not voting or voting for Trump.
As long as said wet paper bag has a D next to its name
Wut
Don’t be so sure he’ll be fine. If he looses, he risks being official acted.
If Biden loses he’ll be more of a threat dead than alive.
Biden already said He’s fine with losing as long as he tried his hardest
Which is the dumbest statement I’ve heard this year.
It’s up to us. It’s a shit situation. But it’s up to us.
We have to demand Biden be replaced with someone who can make people enthusiastic about voting.
who everyone who dmeanded such will demand that his replacement is not good enough.
Someone call an ambulance
No one, and I do mean no one, was enthusiastic about Biden in 2020. I don’t think many, if any, voted for him, they voted against Donald Trump is all. How many Biden signs did you see out and about? Almost none. That lack of enthusiasm is, in part, why some repubs genuinely believed the election was somehow stolen. They sure as hell didn’t see any enthusiasm either.
.
My point being, we got it done last time with zero to negative level enthusiasm.
.
This is where republicans have the advantage. They March forth and do their toe the line duty for “the cause” whatever it is. We wheedle and argue. With good reason, definitely now, I love Jon Stewart to death for saying all the things I’m feeling about this situation right now. But if wheedling and arguing cripple you and let Christo-authoritarian corporate dominance win, that’s not a good thing, no matter how righteous the argument for change before the election is.
.
We did the thing in 2020. We need to do the thing in even greater numbers in 2024 or democracy is dead.
.
Kamala will take over at some point before 2028. And Whitmer will be the new Dem candidate for 2028. Unless another Bernie type comes along.
Biden only won in 2020 because Covid happened under Trump. The DNC vehemently rejects Bernie-types (such as when they gave Trump the win in 2016). Kamala is a nothingburger (who still consistently polls 1-4 points above Biden), and I’ll be surprised if we have elections in 2028 after Project 2025.
No, we won’t. That is a certainty.
The only way that man will agree to leave to White House a second time, is in a coffin. (As in natural causes.)
