Only in the sense that they still exist, and thus have never truly been defeated. Fascists and authoritarians have lost elections, and thus lost or never gained power… but fascism and authoritarianism still exist as concepts. The only real way to change that is to:
A. Completely remove the concept from public consciousness, which is nigh impossible and can always be thought of again
B. Kill anyone you suspect of harboring fascist or authoritarian thoughts. Which is the kind of thing people think when they say “that just makes you a fascist/authoritarian yourself”.
You can not police thought unless you become that which you hate. You can help to foster an environment where those ideas seem silly and not worthwhile… bit not with swords or guns.
If you don’t believe that you can have what you want with democracy, with freedom of choice, with elections and voting. That your only choice is to force others to see things your way with violence… then I have some bad news for you. You are the authoritarian.
You can not force people to be free at the tip of a bayonet. They have to choose it for themselves.
We defeated fascism militarily 80 years ago, and yet it’s slowly it grew back and is poised to take power again. Everything that happened since wasn’t defeating fascism but nurturing it, as it’s been growing in power since. You are positing a false dichotomy. The only way to defeat fascism is to change to a system that doesn’t breed fascism.
We didn’t defeat fascism, we defeated fascists. Fascism didn’t stop existing because we defeated Germany in a war. It just went into hiding. A lot of that hiding in the US.
The idea that we “defeated fascism” is part of the problem with why it still exists. That we were able to shoot it in the face and it just went away.
The only way to defeat fascism is to change to a system that doesn’t breed fascism.
Yes, that is literally the point of my previous comment. The problem is you are advocating a system that fosters it, not one that removes it.
What? Lol the current system breeds it. The one you explicitly endorse through voting. How is what I suggest promoting fascism? Do you even know what I would suggest or are you just making an ass of yourself?
Mate, you lot have been “voting the fascists out” for the past 80 years and they’ve only been growing stronger to the point where you’re about to get fascism in multiple northern nations (never mind the looming climate apocalypse) . Surely you must know what they call ones who keep doing the same thing and expect different results.
Mostly because people like you refuse to participate because you’d rather be “above that sort of thing”.
You won’t change shit by being an outlier. You won’t make a difference by refusing to participate. Telling everyone that the system stinks and you’re going to go make your own is how you get hundreds of systems that have no effect on anything.
You want to make change? Stop being an island unto yourself and work with other people. You don’t have to work with fascists, but you will have to work with people you don’t see as “good enough”. Because otherwise all you are is a drop in a very big ocean.
Who says we’re nor working? Just because we don’t participate in the electoral farce? The only progress you’ve seen is from people like us who take direct action instead of mindlessly taking a performative action every couple of years.
Fair, I took your example of “we defeated fascism militarily” and not expounded about anything else as a solution except not voting at all… I took that as your solution.
Please do explain how you will solve all our problems in such a way that you aren’t able to vote as well.
If you’re looking for magical solutions, I don’t have any for you, but I know that strong anarcho-syndicalist unions push back against fascism through labor action (awhile making everyone’s lives better) and scaring the politicians shirtless and can lead to a anarcho communist revolution which when successful makes fascism impossible anymore.
Firstly, never in the history of the world has fascism and authoritarianism been defeated through voting.
Second, from a socialist perpective, a liberal is a proponent of capitalism with democratic trappings.
Third lol
As Neil Gaiman once wrote in something entirely unrelated:
“‘Time is fluid here,’ said the demon.”
Are Labour liberals? We have a Lib Dem party who I consider the liberal party, well I assume they are anyway.
Labour right now is just the Tory party from 12 years ago. So scumbags but only massive scumbags instead of gigantic scumbags.
They’re slightly to the left of US liberals, so I guess that’s close enough for a meme.
Only in the sense that they still exist, and thus have never truly been defeated. Fascists and authoritarians have lost elections, and thus lost or never gained power… but fascism and authoritarianism still exist as concepts. The only real way to change that is to:
A. Completely remove the concept from public consciousness, which is nigh impossible and can always be thought of again
B. Kill anyone you suspect of harboring fascist or authoritarian thoughts. Which is the kind of thing people think when they say “that just makes you a fascist/authoritarian yourself”.
You can not police thought unless you become that which you hate. You can help to foster an environment where those ideas seem silly and not worthwhile… bit not with swords or guns.
If you don’t believe that you can have what you want with democracy, with freedom of choice, with elections and voting. That your only choice is to force others to see things your way with violence… then I have some bad news for you. You are the authoritarian.
You can not force people to be free at the tip of a bayonet. They have to choose it for themselves.
We defeated fascism militarily 80 years ago, and yet it’s slowly it grew back and is poised to take power again. Everything that happened since wasn’t defeating fascism but nurturing it, as it’s been growing in power since. You are positing a false dichotomy. The only way to defeat fascism is to change to a system that doesn’t breed fascism.
We didn’t defeat fascism, we defeated fascists. Fascism didn’t stop existing because we defeated Germany in a war. It just went into hiding. A lot of that hiding in the US.
The idea that we “defeated fascism” is part of the problem with why it still exists. That we were able to shoot it in the face and it just went away.
Yes, that is literally the point of my previous comment. The problem is you are advocating a system that fosters it, not one that removes it.
What? Lol the current system breeds it. The one you explicitly endorse through voting. How is what I suggest promoting fascism? Do you even know what I would suggest or are you just making an ass of yourself?
Ah yes, let the fascists win the election rather than voting against them, which would “endorse” them somehow. Great leftist logic there.
Mate, you lot have been “voting the fascists out” for the past 80 years and they’ve only been growing stronger to the point where you’re about to get fascism in multiple northern nations (never mind the looming climate apocalypse) . Surely you must know what they call ones who keep doing the same thing and expect different results.
Mostly because people like you refuse to participate because you’d rather be “above that sort of thing”.
You won’t change shit by being an outlier. You won’t make a difference by refusing to participate. Telling everyone that the system stinks and you’re going to go make your own is how you get hundreds of systems that have no effect on anything.
You want to make change? Stop being an island unto yourself and work with other people. You don’t have to work with fascists, but you will have to work with people you don’t see as “good enough”. Because otherwise all you are is a drop in a very big ocean.
Who says we’re nor working? Just because we don’t participate in the electoral farce? The only progress you’ve seen is from people like us who take direct action instead of mindlessly taking a performative action every couple of years.
You’re literally advocating violence to enforce your point of view.
I dont know what you think that is, but it sure as fuck isn’t leftist. You don’t change minds by caving them in.
Where did you see me advocating for violence? Are you making silly assumptions again?
Fair, I took your example of “we defeated fascism militarily” and not expounded about anything else as a solution except not voting at all… I took that as your solution.
Please do explain how you will solve all our problems in such a way that you aren’t able to vote as well.
If you’re looking for magical solutions, I don’t have any for you, but I know that strong anarcho-syndicalist unions push back against fascism through labor action (awhile making everyone’s lives better) and scaring the politicians shirtless and can lead to a anarcho communist revolution which when successful makes fascism impossible anymore.
From an American socialist perspective
No, from every proper/genuine socialist perspective (ie. one that defines socialism by the public ownership of the economy)