*martyr

How does caving in and giving the Russian Empire what it desires benefit people? It’s telling Russia “sure, go ahead, what you’re doing is fine, do it as often as you want”.

Because it brings an end to the war. And an end to the civil war. And depending on what’s negotiated in exchange (NATO membership, EU membership etc), secures Ukraine against further escalation or Russian invasion.

The Ukrainian government was shelling Russian military positions after the invasion started, in 2014

I was clearly referring the current war, which Russia refers to as the SMO and western press as the ‘invasion of Ukraine’ or the ‘Ukraine war’. Saying the formal war actually started with Russian interference in the Donbas and Crimea opens up all sorts of other cans of worms - if it was an act of war, why wasn’t war declared, how could the SMO by an unprompted invasion if they were already at war, how was the 2014 coup not similar interference etc etc. I don’t think it’s a useful framing except to defend the attacks on the Donbas regions.

The Ukrainian army speaks Russian, FFS!

This is totally fair and it was extremely lazy and inaccurate framing on my part. Let’s not pretend that use of Russian (and other, minority languages) isn’t an issue though. There was the 2017 education law, which was widely condemned, and was at least improved upon. The 2019 Lviv ban on Russian language cultural products.The national 2019 Ukrainian language law which has been widely criticised. And since then there’s been the banning of Russian books and music. I’m glad you think “the Russian language and culture is one thing”, I do too, but clearly a significant portion of thr Ukrainian state has issues with it that go a lot further than just that Ukraine should speak more Ukrainian (which I don’t have a problem with for what it’s worth).

Where does this notion of “Ukraine is doing ethnic cleansing” coming from? I didn’t claim that. But I think it’s a reasonable concern that without independence & security guarantees the Donbas and Crimea regions would be vulnerable to it. And the idea that it’s possible comes from a decade of far-right parties and paramilitaries engaged in everything from attacks of vigils and protests, to taking over council buildings and forcing law changes, to murders and waging a continued war on these regions, often with state support. There’s been increases in hate crime, increasing acceptance of Nazi imagery, and ever more mainstream unquestionably genocidal language

“Meddling” from the European side consists of saying “Sure, there’s a way to EU membership for you”.

That’s clearly not the extent of it though and doesn’t take into account the meddling of the US or the UK (which might as well be the US at this point). Theres about 20 years of US proxy orgs meddling, EU meddling (which sometimes conflicted with the US) for economic gain, the US support and funding for the 2014 coup, predatory IMF-loans, foreign capital’s insistence on eliminating worker protections and stripping the copper wire out of the walls of Ukraine, or UK/US pressure on the 2022 peace talks.

I would advocate for things like the US to stop pussyfooting about and deliver ATACMS to bring a quicker end to the war. Russia lost the war within the first couple of days only issue is Ukraine didn’t win yet

You see, here’s where we just fundamentally disagree. That framing might feel nice, it may even be the case on the basis of whatever your hopes that they accomplish are, but the war is still going on because the reality is that the war is still going on.

You seem to think Russia being entirely driven out of Ukraine’s borders is inevitable and I don’t, probably the opposite in fact. And I don’t think that one more weapon system, just like all the others before it, is going to change the outcome. Especially when the US in particular, and therefore NATO more generally, seems to be signalling a reduction in enthusiasm and support. I live in Europe too and some European nations might continue there support, but there’s no denying that they’re more dependent on the US than they were before this conflict.

Ultimately though, my point remains the same. This war overwhelmingly hurts the working class. Of Ukraine, of Russia, of separatist regions, of the countries fighting this war by proxy, of the countries being squeezed by related sanctions, and of the countries whose vital trade has been effected. As I made clear in my original post:

I want both sides at the negotiating table rather than on the battlefield ideally, but if the conditions don’t allow the two sides to do that then I hope they’ll change as quickly as possible, because the longer this goes on the worse it gets all around.

I’ll leave it there for now as this isn’t what this thread is about. I was asked to explain some of the thinking behind some Hexbear comments and I have. I clarified my opinion for you, because you obviously put a lot of effect into your response to me and I thought you deserved a reply.

Whatever happens with federation and so on I hope you enjoy the rest of your time here on Lemmy.

I suspect that one won’t last either, but I’m happy to talk with the nice people over there until they eventually find a reason to defed or thr anti-communist trolls get their way.

We floss our teeth with the soft and flexible spines of Reddit liberals.

Same here. And yet have not achieved nearly the same posting powers. Endless respect.

That really was a beautiful reveal.

It’s actually just a big string of fairy lights. It makes NK really cosy and so no one wants to leave.

Continued happiness and support to all our trans comrades and a big shout out for getting this off the ground! You’ve all had to put up with far more shit than anyone deserves lately (and you know in general).

See, this is a good example of exactly what I’m talking about. I get that it can seem shocking to people, especially if they’re used to viewing a war as a simple good nation / bad nation dynamic, and that it’s emotional. But if you’re actually asking in good faith and just upset, I’ll try to explain - although I also think you should go back and reread my comment above.

So what you’re saying is that imperial powers should be able to send little green men into other countries, instigate astroturf civil wars, to break those countries apart, and then have those “independent” territories “democratically” join the imperialist aggressor nation

That bizarre generalisation is obviously not my position, as the rest of the post above makes clear.

And that we should let them get away with it.

I don’t even know what this means. Russia still will have lost thousands of people, been isolated by the NATO-West, and suffered big economic blows. Beyond that, the sad reality is that countries almost always “get away” with waging war. What’s the alternative, escalating it into a global conflict, nuclear war? How does that benefit the people of either side or anyone else?

That we’re supposed to tell Ukraine, the attacked party here, “No sorry the Russians are too good at weaselling and throwing rhetoric smoke grenades you’re out of luck we won’t help you”.

Again, I don’t really know what that means. It’s a matter of dealing practically with the situation as it actually exists. How could those regions possibly immediately reintegrate into Ukraine? The Ukrainian government was shelling the Donbas for more than half a decade before the war even started, not to mention the far-right militias. Do you think the rhetoric or hate for Russian speaking people in those regions has reduced during this war, that those regions and the Ukrainian nationalists are closer to peace? Without security guarantees it’ll be worse than before the war and very likely end in ethnic cleansing and the breaking of the Minsk agreements already demonstrates that the Ukrainian government can’t or won’t keep a lid on it.

Since you framed it as we won’t help you I’m going to assume you’re also in a NATO country like I am. Again, I ask you, what should we tell them? That there can be no peace and they have to fight Russia to the last Ukrainian? That retribution and likely ethnic cleansing against those regions is fine actually because of some arbitrary notion of national fairness?

Personally I’m not sure we should be telling them anything. It’s pretty clear that foreign meddling helped create this war and derail peace talks earlier in the conflict. Like I said before, ideally I want Russia and Ukraine sat at the negotiating table, both begrudgingly settling on a deal that’s best for everybody - meaning ordinary people, not the egos of nation states.

Oh yeah. I guess it never made the cut.

This is the 24th (century) type of liberalism.

(I kid, I kid)

If Hexbear kills anyone it’ll be our first poster to die of dehydration whilst posting for 72hrs uninterrupted. But we’ll probably get of a new thesis on posadism out of it.

If there’s ever anything else like that you’re wondering about on a Hexbear comment or whatever in the future, just ask. We’re always happy to explain.

Two users in the same post, both throwing out smears and totally unable to back them up, both referencing a Sartre quote they clearly don’t understand while doing the very thing it criticises. What are the odds!?

We’re being nice. As I said to the other user who tried to pull that, Sartre would have had you in tears:

Sartre was a lifelong Marxist. A man who opposed the Nazi occupation of France, was happy to support revolutionary communist resistance groups, and was a prisoner of war taken by the Nazis. He wrote about the fact that the Soviet Union was a true revelutionary project working for the betterment of all mankind. He had his criticisms like we all do when it didn’t live up to it’s ideals, but unlike other nations he considered to be mostly disgusting bourgeois colonial powers, he didn’t ascribe it to an innate problem with the USSR. He called the US of the time “dangerously pre fascist”. He strongly condemned the US and South Korea in the Korean War. He was disgusted by the US involvement in Vietnam. Loathed the later French state for their oppression of Algeria. And on and on and on.

You’d have called him a brainwashed, tankie, genocide denying, authoritarian, equivalent to the Nazis too. And he’d have fucking hated you and everything you apparently stand for in return.

Orb Queen / Powerful Magic Guy 2024

No worries, you’re welcome.

(And yeah, I didn’t link because I wasn’t sure about that either)

No problem on part two. You got it, I just wanted to add some extra context too because obviously we’d been focused on wars with the Ukraine stuff.

I’ve enjoy it too, I appreciate you asking and taking the time to go through it all with me.

I’ve been very careful to be fair in my other posts on this being a two way street that the majority of people here have been fine, especially those who just came in and said their piece regardless of whether I agree with it or not, like the thread was supposed to be for. I’ve had some great conversations with people here too and I dig your art comm. I’ll be contributing more to that I think, probably elsewhere too.

I just meant to explain that Hexbear can sometimes seem really good natured in some instances and pretty aggressive in others it’s that we’ve put up with a lot of shit, even constant trolling, bigoted actual Brigades, DDOS attacks etc long before federation. We’re generally pretty welcoming so long as people come with an open mind and be sincere. But when we get hostility up front we tend not bother in the niceties or take any bullshit to put it bluntly.

Anyway, it’s been good chatting with you. I hope this all works out.