Is there anything in Bluesky’s design that prevents the company from attracting a critical mass of users and then restricting federation, or cutting it off entirely?
I don’t think there are any other Instances aside from the default bsky.social right now. It’s only federated in theory and essentially a closed platform until that changes. Pretty sad that it gets all the attention instead of Mastodon.
I’m not even sure what the word is to describe that mentality. The closest I think of is “willfully ignorant”, but that’s not quite it.
Basically people like you are blind to the reason as to why bluesky and not mastodon is getting all the twitter runaways.
And you’re blind to it, not because you’re incapable of seeing the reasons. You’re just unwilling to accept that those reasons ARE the reasons it’s happening this way.
Basically the 95% of society don’t give a shit about federation. It’s not a selling point, it’s a scary confusing distraction. Many of them probably went to sign up for mastodon, as they had heard of it…but then they found out:
“There are thousands of mastodons, and if you sign up on one, you can’t sign up on the other, and you can only talk to the people on your mastodon…oh, bluesky is just one service. You sign up, and you’re done. Oh, it’s even asking me if I want to connect with mastodon. So that means I never needed to connect to mastodon! And this one is just like twitter. I know this. The other one is scary. This one is what I like.”
And then you come in, correcting every wrong aspect of what they just said. You start using terms like fediverse, and instances, and federate, and they just give you blank stares.
They don’t give a shit about that. At all. At allllll. At allllllllllll.
I’m going to include a picture here. I took a picture of my wall while I was watching a hockey game. You’ll notice their twitter handles. But those handles are also accessable all across the net. That’s how the fediverse should work.
TonyBrownpxp. You’ll notice they don’t put the X logo in that graphic. They just put the handle, and assume the audience knows what to do. Now, Tony Brown isn’t a celebrity. He’s a hockey announcer for a Cleveland based AHL hockey team, the Cleveland Monsters. AHL is the farm system for NHL. So this is minor league hockey.
Hardley someone who anyone would instantly know the name Tony Brown. However, if you’re watching hockey, and you see the handle @TonyBrownPXP with no other context, as shown in this photo, you know how to contact them.
But, if he were to say, have a mastodon, it would have to be @[email protected]
And furthermore, if @[email protected] exists, that means you can’t just throw @TonyBrownPXP on the screen with a mastodon logo, because which @TonyBrownPXP IS it???
And so now your screenis just FILLED with text, all because handles aren’t handled universally on the fediverse. I’m personally signed up for 3 diffeeent fediverse services, all using Lost_My_Mind, but on 3 different instances. What if a 2nd person signs up Lost_My_Mind on a 4th instance? I have no way to prove that’s not me. And I don’t think anyone gives a shit enough about me to investigate if it WAS me. So anything they say, would in the minds of humans, be assosiated with me.
And while I won’t call TonyBrown a celebrity, it’s the same for celebrities, and guys like him. He encourages fan interaction during hockey games, and he refuses to call it X. He always says “Send your thoughts or questions to me on twitter, or I guess they call it X now, which is a stupid name, but send your questions to @TonyBrownPXP and we’ll address the best ones during game breaks and intermission!”
Says almost the same exact thing, almost word for word, always with the snide diss of twitter, every game.
Now I’ve never signed up for loops, or pixelfed, or peertube, or a lot of services. But when I signed up for the fediverse, it should have had me pick a username. Lost_My_Mind. Ok, now when I sign up to any service, Lemmy, or Pixelfed, or peertube, or anything else, Lost_My_Mind should be my handle.
And if someone ELSE tries signing up for Pixelfed, on a different instance, they can’t use Lost_My_Mind. Even though I don’t have a registered pixelfed account. Even though I don’t have an account on that other instance.
I’M Lost_My_Mind. Not you on another instance. But that’s not how the fediverse works. And because people don’t understand, or give a shit about any of that, they just go with what they know.
Right now, we’re in the early days of the fediverse. The experience should be centralized, while the underlaying services and protocols should be decentralized. Because right now, the whole thing isn’t decentralized. It’s fractured.
Basically people like you are blind to the reason as to why bluesky and not mastodon is getting all the twitter runaways.
Bluesky absolutely provides a better, more cohesive and centralised experience than most of the fediverse microblog alternatives.
That’s why it’s getting more people
But the reason it can do that is because it’s centralised, with federation tacked on. And that centralisation means it’s most likely going to go through the same cycle of enshittification as twitter, facebook, reddit etc. Twitter was great to use back in the day. Reddit was great to use back in the day. Then they got large captive audiences that couldn’t leave because of the network effect, and instead of trying to make the platforms attractive to new people, they started to bleed their existing customers for value at the expense of their user experience, because those people had nowhere else they could easily go.
Bluesky will go down that same path if they get a critical mass of users and stop being the “alternative” to twitter.
Mastodon and the fediverse will always be an alternative at best, because they can’t compete with the experience of using a centralised network. But the Fediverse platforms don’t suffer from the vulnerability of centralised networks and their path to enshittification. And for me, that’s going to keep me here.
The only way I’ll move to Bluesky is if they truly embrace decentralisation to the point where the platform/network could exist without them.
I think GP has one or two good points about shortcomings of the existing distributed platforms, but I also think these things can be addressed. For example, a centralized system’s single namespace for usernames brings advantages for both identity and usability. This would be harder for a distributed system to implement, of course, but it’s not impossible.
But if the atproto team actually releases a way to selfhost a relay server as well (and not just a data server), in theory if bluesky enshittifies you could always fork the app, selfhost your PDS and Relay and migrate, while still being able to interact with the people in the “mainstream bluesky”.
I know this is a big if, and that at the moment it’s not reality, but the Atmosphere it’s at leaat 10 years younger than the Fediverse. So I’d say let’s not call it shit yet and just see how it evolves…
It’s not shit yet. Right now, it’s good. Honestly, better than the fediverse in core usability.
The issue is whether it stays that way. And yeah, if they open up the way you’re talking about, I’ll probably move over myself, because that’s the protection against enshittification. But if they don’t open up, if they stay centralised, and just play at federation, then the writing is on the wall for how it ends, because it’s happened countless times before. And I won’t invest my time or effort in being part of that community only to lose it
Bluesky absolutely provides a better, more cohesive and centralised experience than most of the fediverse microblog alternatives.
That’s why it’s getting more people
That’s BS, they’re only getting more people 'cos normies never heard of the fediverse, maybe once or twice about mastodon and couldn’t be arsed to try a fringe app “nobody” uses anyway - it’s liek email? What?
Plus their two techie friends are moving to Bluesky so it must be good.
Look, I appreciate you pushing on the UX aspects of the fediverse here. But let me ask yout something. What’s your email address? Is it Lost_My_Mind? No? Oh, because it’s got an @whatever.com on the end? Why is that? Why don’t we have one global, centralized namespace for email usernames such that there’s only a single Lost_My_Mind in the whole world?
You do realize Bluesky also tacks on .bsky.social? (Though with a dot instead of a second @)
And even without other instances, ATProto already allows people to sign up using domains they own.
The closest you can get to using Lost_My_Mind as you Bluesky handle is by aquiring a domain like lost_my_mind.com. And that still wouldn’t prevent someone else from signing up using lost_my_mind.net.
And that’s before pointing out that Impersonation and mistaken identities isn’t a solved problem on twitter, either.
Bluesky is succeeding because its a smooth and familiar experience that obfuscates away the complexity of how it works.
Absolutely nothing about how the ActivityPub network works conceptually prevents it from being an equally smooth experience, given the work were put in.
Your first six paragraphs hit the mark, but the following rant about the “username univerasility problem” ain’t it.
I like it. That is absolutely how Mastodon and Fediverse in general should have been prepared for the X-odus. But instead it all ends up over at Bluesky where it will inevitably turn to dogshit.
I don’t know what tailscale is, but based on the context, it sounds like what I mean. As long as it’s handling JUST the handles.
Because realistically, from a computer perspective I would still be @[email protected] from a purely technical behind the scenes standpoint.
All my posts, and such would be hosted on Lemmy.World but from a human perspective, I would just be @Lost_My_Mind
So if you mention me, or message me, you’d be using @Lost_My_Mind but the technicals would take that handle, and say "ok, where do I deliver this? Ah, yes, it’s registered at @[email protected]
So thats where the computers would deliver that message. Even though you, the user, don’t even need to know which instance I’m registered at. No need to display that. Make it FEEL centralized, while actually making it decentralized.
Mastodon is fine, but I burned out on it pretty quick. There’s not an intuitive way to find new content on there. I’m sure the content is fine, but Bluesky can get you up and running really quickly.
I like the fact that I’m not being fed some corporate algorithm.
Bluesky’s entire appeal for me is that you can choose (or even create) your recommendation algorithm. Not only it’s an amazing idea, it also works really well
In practice, however, because the client is closed source and there’s no way to self-host and instance, BlueSky users will eventually find themselves at the whims of the people/person who controls the software. What’s to stop some Elon Musk type from buying BlueSky next and then adding things to your algorithm without your consent?
That’s why I’m very skeptical of BlueSky’s pseudo-federation, as it feels like people are just making the same mistakes (with regard to corporate social media) over and over again. Unlike Mastodon (which I understand is less popular right now and thus the network/peer effect is weaker for people), the users have very little control over BlueSky as a platform, and that feels like a mistake.
With all that said, priority numero uno should simply be to get people off of shit like X.com and TikTok, which aren’t just at risk of becoming toxic playgrounds of oligarchs, but already are. If people choose BlueSky as the next corporate platform to go to, it’s a small step in the right direction, but it’s worth proceeding with caution.
Despite being “open source”, if you want to run your own Personal Data Sever, to join the network you’ll need to join Bluesky’s AT Protocol PDS Admins Discord server:
I mean, it’s kind of silly to lock it behind Discord, but just forcing admits to have a Discord account isn’t that egregious. You’re not forced to use it outside of communicating with Bluesky admins (or whatever goes on in that server).
Bluesky is centralised and funded by VCs. It plays at being decentralised because people can bring their own hardware to the party and plugin to the Bluesky network, but if Bluesky (the company) turns it off, then Bluesky the platform/network ceases to be usable. They also started without allowing federation with their core network, so they can easily disable it again at any time.
Bluesky is not decentralised in any meaningful way, which means its at risk of the same bullshit that has driven most of us away from reddit, twitter, facebook etc
Sure, but the network itself is still there and still running, and I can still use it (albeit with some disruption).
The point is though, that as long as it’s not dependent on a single instance, enshittification isn’t the inevitable end state.
And for me, despite the usability issues of the fediverse instance based method, it’s a better alternative than joining and losing another social media network to gradual enshittification and slack moderation
It’s not like my account is that important. I have the same account on different instances so when one has technical problems, I just use the other. Just copied the settings over. Not like I need to be able to go through all my history much.
They are a gateway to federated material as any other (like Lemmy), and those controls are at the platform. They can gatekeep federated content very simply.
There is nothing stopping them from leaving it all open aside from costs though. Hosting is very expensive, and I’m not sure how they plan to support their platform aside from advertising, at which point you may be stuck in a spot where you shut down certain intersections to appease advertisers.
That could change at any time, but seems likely to be true for now.
I would guess things will be fine at least up until they either IPO or they get bought by a VC firm or some public corp. That’s the point in the ensuing to fixation cycle to move to something else (unless something unexpected happens like they really do nicely federate before then or something else that may save the platform).
So I’m guessing probably at least a couple years that it’ll be good, and it’s 10000x better than Xitter.
Is there anything in Bluesky’s design that prevents the company from attracting a critical mass of users and then restricting federation, or cutting it off entirely?
No.
I don’t think there are any other Instances aside from the default bsky.social right now. It’s only federated in theory and essentially a closed platform until that changes. Pretty sad that it gets all the attention instead of Mastodon.
I’m not even sure what the word is to describe that mentality. The closest I think of is “willfully ignorant”, but that’s not quite it.
Basically people like you are blind to the reason as to why bluesky and not mastodon is getting all the twitter runaways.
And you’re blind to it, not because you’re incapable of seeing the reasons. You’re just unwilling to accept that those reasons ARE the reasons it’s happening this way.
Basically the 95% of society don’t give a shit about federation. It’s not a selling point, it’s a scary confusing distraction. Many of them probably went to sign up for mastodon, as they had heard of it…but then they found out:
And then you come in, correcting every wrong aspect of what they just said. You start using terms like fediverse, and instances, and federate, and they just give you blank stares.
They don’t give a shit about that. At all. At allllll. At allllllllllll.
I’m going to include a picture here. I took a picture of my wall while I was watching a hockey game. You’ll notice their twitter handles. But those handles are also accessable all across the net. That’s how the fediverse should work.
TonyBrownpxp. You’ll notice they don’t put the X logo in that graphic. They just put the handle, and assume the audience knows what to do. Now, Tony Brown isn’t a celebrity. He’s a hockey announcer for a Cleveland based AHL hockey team, the Cleveland Monsters. AHL is the farm system for NHL. So this is minor league hockey.
Hardley someone who anyone would instantly know the name Tony Brown. However, if you’re watching hockey, and you see the handle @TonyBrownPXP with no other context, as shown in this photo, you know how to contact them.
But, if he were to say, have a mastodon, it would have to be @[email protected]
And furthermore, if @[email protected] exists, that means you can’t just throw @TonyBrownPXP on the screen with a mastodon logo, because which @TonyBrownPXP IS it???
And so now your screenis just FILLED with text, all because handles aren’t handled universally on the fediverse. I’m personally signed up for 3 diffeeent fediverse services, all using Lost_My_Mind, but on 3 different instances. What if a 2nd person signs up Lost_My_Mind on a 4th instance? I have no way to prove that’s not me. And I don’t think anyone gives a shit enough about me to investigate if it WAS me. So anything they say, would in the minds of humans, be assosiated with me.
And while I won’t call TonyBrown a celebrity, it’s the same for celebrities, and guys like him. He encourages fan interaction during hockey games, and he refuses to call it X. He always says “Send your thoughts or questions to me on twitter, or I guess they call it X now, which is a stupid name, but send your questions to @TonyBrownPXP and we’ll address the best ones during game breaks and intermission!”
Says almost the same exact thing, almost word for word, always with the snide diss of twitter, every game.
Now I’ve never signed up for loops, or pixelfed, or peertube, or a lot of services. But when I signed up for the fediverse, it should have had me pick a username. Lost_My_Mind. Ok, now when I sign up to any service, Lemmy, or Pixelfed, or peertube, or anything else, Lost_My_Mind should be my handle.
And if someone ELSE tries signing up for Pixelfed, on a different instance, they can’t use Lost_My_Mind. Even though I don’t have a registered pixelfed account. Even though I don’t have an account on that other instance.
I’M Lost_My_Mind. Not you on another instance. But that’s not how the fediverse works. And because people don’t understand, or give a shit about any of that, they just go with what they know.
Right now, we’re in the early days of the fediverse. The experience should be centralized, while the underlaying services and protocols should be decentralized. Because right now, the whole thing isn’t decentralized. It’s fractured.
Bluesky absolutely provides a better, more cohesive and centralised experience than most of the fediverse microblog alternatives.
That’s why it’s getting more people
But the reason it can do that is because it’s centralised, with federation tacked on. And that centralisation means it’s most likely going to go through the same cycle of enshittification as twitter, facebook, reddit etc. Twitter was great to use back in the day. Reddit was great to use back in the day. Then they got large captive audiences that couldn’t leave because of the network effect, and instead of trying to make the platforms attractive to new people, they started to bleed their existing customers for value at the expense of their user experience, because those people had nowhere else they could easily go.
Bluesky will go down that same path if they get a critical mass of users and stop being the “alternative” to twitter.
Mastodon and the fediverse will always be an alternative at best, because they can’t compete with the experience of using a centralised network. But the Fediverse platforms don’t suffer from the vulnerability of centralised networks and their path to enshittification. And for me, that’s going to keep me here.
The only way I’ll move to Bluesky is if they truly embrace decentralisation to the point where the platform/network could exist without them.
I’m with you.
I think GP has one or two good points about shortcomings of the existing distributed platforms, but I also think these things can be addressed. For example, a centralized system’s single namespace for usernames brings advantages for both identity and usability. This would be harder for a distributed system to implement, of course, but it’s not impossible.
They are getting more people because they are paying them and in bed with corporations.
Where do I put in my request for that bluesky money I’m owed, then?
They pay celebrities and companies
They pay celebrities and companies not people with 0 followers
But if the atproto team actually releases a way to selfhost a relay server as well (and not just a data server), in theory if bluesky enshittifies you could always fork the app, selfhost your PDS and Relay and migrate, while still being able to interact with the people in the “mainstream bluesky”.
I know this is a big if, and that at the moment it’s not reality, but the Atmosphere it’s at leaat 10 years younger than the Fediverse. So I’d say let’s not call it shit yet and just see how it evolves…
It’s not shit yet. Right now, it’s good. Honestly, better than the fediverse in core usability.
The issue is whether it stays that way. And yeah, if they open up the way you’re talking about, I’ll probably move over myself, because that’s the protection against enshittification. But if they don’t open up, if they stay centralised, and just play at federation, then the writing is on the wall for how it ends, because it’s happened countless times before. And I won’t invest my time or effort in being part of that community only to lose it
That’s BS, they’re only getting more people 'cos normies never heard of the fediverse, maybe once or twice about mastodon and couldn’t be arsed to try a fringe app “nobody” uses anyway - it’s liek email? What?
Plus their two techie friends are moving to Bluesky so it must be good.
Look, I appreciate you pushing on the UX aspects of the fediverse here. But let me ask yout something. What’s your email address? Is it Lost_My_Mind? No? Oh, because it’s got an @whatever.com on the end? Why is that? Why don’t we have one global, centralized namespace for email usernames such that there’s only a single Lost_My_Mind in the whole world?
You do realize Bluesky also tacks on
.bsky.social? (Though with a dot instead of a second @)And even without other instances, ATProto already allows people to sign up using domains they own.
The closest you can get to using Lost_My_Mind as you Bluesky handle is by aquiring a domain like
lost_my_mind.com. And that still wouldn’t prevent someone else from signing up usinglost_my_mind.net.And that’s before pointing out that Impersonation and mistaken identities isn’t a solved problem on twitter, either.
Bluesky is succeeding because its a smooth and familiar experience that obfuscates away the complexity of how it works.
Absolutely nothing about how the ActivityPub network works conceptually prevents it from being an equally smooth experience, given the work were put in.
Your first six paragraphs hit the mark, but the following rant about the “username univerasility problem” ain’t it.
So OIDC for ActivityPub.
I like it. That is absolutely how Mastodon and Fediverse in general should have been prepared for the X-odus. But instead it all ends up over at Bluesky where it will inevitably turn to dogshit.
I have no idea what OIDC is…so, maybe?
https://openid.net/developers/how-connect-works/
Centralized identity service like how you can use a google/github account to sign into services like Tailscale.
I don’t know what tailscale is, but based on the context, it sounds like what I mean. As long as it’s handling JUST the handles.
Because realistically, from a computer perspective I would still be @[email protected] from a purely technical behind the scenes standpoint.
All my posts, and such would be hosted on Lemmy.World but from a human perspective, I would just be @Lost_My_Mind
So if you mention me, or message me, you’d be using @Lost_My_Mind but the technicals would take that handle, and say "ok, where do I deliver this? Ah, yes, it’s registered at @[email protected]
So thats where the computers would deliver that message. Even though you, the user, don’t even need to know which instance I’m registered at. No need to display that. Make it FEEL centralized, while actually making it decentralized.
Mastodon is fine, but I burned out on it pretty quick. There’s not an intuitive way to find new content on there. I’m sure the content is fine, but Bluesky can get you up and running really quickly.
I’ve found tons of new “content” on Mastodon by following hashtags related to the things I like.
Personally I like the fact that I’m not being fed some corporate algorithm.
Bluesky’s entire appeal for me is that you can choose (or even create) your recommendation algorithm. Not only it’s an amazing idea, it also works really well
Sure, that’s definitely nice in theory.
In practice, however, because the client is closed source and there’s no way to self-host and instance, BlueSky users will eventually find themselves at the whims of the people/person who controls the software. What’s to stop some Elon Musk type from buying BlueSky next and then adding things to your algorithm without your consent?
That’s why I’m very skeptical of BlueSky’s pseudo-federation, as it feels like people are just making the same mistakes (with regard to corporate social media) over and over again. Unlike Mastodon (which I understand is less popular right now and thus the network/peer effect is weaker for people), the users have very little control over BlueSky as a platform, and that feels like a mistake.
With all that said, priority numero uno should simply be to get people off of shit like X.com and TikTok, which aren’t just at risk of becoming toxic playgrounds of oligarchs, but already are. If people choose BlueSky as the next corporate platform to go to, it’s a small step in the right direction, but it’s worth proceeding with caution.
for now. feels like lots of potential for enshittification though.
Just follow hashtags.
Mastedon and the Fediverse need to get their shit together and make it easy for hyper casual basic people to use and understand.
Bluesky doesn’t have any of that.
Not quite true. You can host your own personal data store (PDS), run your own labelling service, and you can host your own feeds.
The big relays and app views are the only thing that aren’t really supported by the official app yet.
Despite being “open source”, if you want to run your own Personal Data Sever, to join the network you’ll need to join Bluesky’s AT Protocol PDS Admins Discord server:
Using discord for this is such a bonehead move.
That would effectively lock participation behind Discord’s terms and conditions. No thanks.
(But thanks for sharing that info. :)
np
I mean, it’s kind of silly to lock it behind Discord, but just forcing admits to have a Discord account isn’t that egregious. You’re not forced to use it outside of communicating with Bluesky admins (or whatever goes on in that server).
I don’t know how old this document is, but I created my own PDS this weekend and it’s not have to join their Discord server to do so.
Don’t give the VCs any ideas!
Bluesky is centralised and funded by VCs. It plays at being decentralised because people can bring their own hardware to the party and plugin to the Bluesky network, but if Bluesky (the company) turns it off, then Bluesky the platform/network ceases to be usable. They also started without allowing federation with their core network, so they can easily disable it again at any time.
Bluesky is not decentralised in any meaningful way, which means its at risk of the same bullshit that has driven most of us away from reddit, twitter, facebook etc
Nothing is truly decentralized. If your Lemmy instance shuts down your account is gone too.
Sure, but the network itself is still there and still running, and I can still use it (albeit with some disruption).
The point is though, that as long as it’s not dependent on a single instance, enshittification isn’t the inevitable end state.
And for me, despite the usability issues of the fediverse instance based method, it’s a better alternative than joining and losing another social media network to gradual enshittification and slack moderation
It’s not like my account is that important. I have the same account on different instances so when one has technical problems, I just use the other. Just copied the settings over. Not like I need to be able to go through all my history much.
BYOI
It’s not centralized, it’s also not a federated network like AP. It’s just a different design.
Two different questions.
They are a gateway to federated material as any other (like Lemmy), and those controls are at the platform. They can gatekeep federated content very simply.
There is nothing stopping them from leaving it all open aside from costs though. Hosting is very expensive, and I’m not sure how they plan to support their platform aside from advertising, at which point you may be stuck in a spot where you shut down certain intersections to appease advertisers.
They currently have no plans for advertisement.
On what they’re currently planning to bring in money:
https://www.theverge.com/2024/10/24/24278666/bluesky-working-on-premium-subscription
That could change at any time, but seems likely to be true for now.
I would guess things will be fine at least up until they either IPO or they get bought by a VC firm or some public corp. That’s the point in the ensuing to fixation cycle to move to something else (unless something unexpected happens like they really do nicely federate before then or something else that may save the platform).
So I’m guessing probably at least a couple years that it’ll be good, and it’s 10000x better than Xitter.