The fact that freedom in the US is conflated with not getting the vaccine is incomprehensible. Something like vaccination should be mandatory with very limited exceptions for truly legitimate cases.
I treat vaccines like pokemon…gotta catch em all. If someone offers me a vaccine, I’ll take it, even if it’s for something rare. I just want to be immunized against as many things as possible.
There’s a saying I want to make famous: “One man’s freedom ends where another’s begins.” Your freedom not to take a vaccine only lasts as long as it does not affect your neighbor’s rights to live and breathe.
The part that this 2+ year old study doesn’t take into consideration Omicron vaccinations. You’ve been vaccinated against Omicron, like a normal, sane person, haven’t you? At the time this was written, they were only using original strain vaccinations. Where I am, in the present, you can’t even get those any more, they’re so far behind.
Or, are you an idiot, and basing decisions off of out of date papers? Because it seems like you might be.
I bet you don’t even understand how flu vaccines change.
Literally expecting vaccines to be 100% effective at preventing the disease is the most wishful thinking anyone has ever had about a medical anything ever
A vaccine is not going to prevent it 100% of the time, and constant or frequent exposure to the virus in question will inevitably lead to infection
As much as I like to make fun of the US, in this particular case I have to point out that a lot of other countries have antivaxxers.
Here in France we have an epidemic of them, and the numbers shows they really made covid worse. My own dad is one of them, and he told me dead serious he’d rather get sick than get any vaccine and that’s his choice and nobody should force him. He, and I guess most other antivax too, either does not understand the concept of herd immmunity or doesn’t care about other people.
As an American it is horrifying to not be able to argue with this directly, because for every outward appearance it might as well be true.
But the argument I would make is that Americans are not the dumbest people in the world, Americans are simply allowed to survive and visibly prosper in spite of, and sometimes because of, their obvious stupidity. And combining this with the entitlement inherent in ‘just happening to be born here’ and the relative complete lack of suffering most of them experience, makes it easy for them to publicly hold opinions that people in most countries would either have to keep to themselves for their own personal safety, or just because few others are willing to join arms with them.
Basically it’s a constantly building bubble that could happen anywhere, and to smaller degrees probably happens all over the world in small communities, but here it’s a bubble that for some reason has been resistant to popping, to the point where any attempts to pop it are easily avoided due to it’s mass and ridiculously protective userbase.
Look at the UK and Brexit, or Russia and the mass of people outwardly supporting Putin, or the Middle East and apparent support of honor killings. Even if the majority of the people living in these areas don’t agree with this outward support, fear or resignation or something stops them from being the loud voice in the space. In the US it might be closer to resignation or hopelessness, but across the world we’re all really the same when you sit down and talk normally…there are stupid people everywhere you look, here we just don’t have a good way to embarrass them into shutting up.
To be fair, America has a health system that gains from keeping people ill and medicated, and after Tuskegee there is little trust in the government either.
Fuck off. You think tik tok and social media is reality? The reality is that there have always been willfully ignorant people and there always will be. In every population. Your generalizations really reflect yourself huh?
They’ve become very anti freedom in fact. Unless it has something to do with a major lobby like guns, or letting corporations pollute air and water, they pretty much are pro restrictions on most things.
They also want to ban them from public libraries now. If successful, do you think they will stop there? I think it’s likely that they will keep pushing for more restrictions.
Heck, I had to fight to get the vaccine in my country.
I was working at a food bank during covid. I was coming face to face with 200 different people every day. Many of whom were covid positive but because they were homeless they had no where else to go.
I have a genetic condition that effects my sympathetic nervous system. I have sinus bradycardia, and chronic pulmonary congestion due to having over 10 bouts of aspiration pneumonia. On top of this I have an autoimmune condition. I was taking immunosuppression therapy in March 2020, I stopped taking because I couldn’t risk my immune system being suppressed in my line of work. I was so sick because of my untreated autoimmune condition, but I just had to deal with it.
In October we started rolling out the vaccine to our most vulnerable populous. I was eligible because of my autoimmune condition and I was first in line at my local vaccination centre.
But my genetic condition was on the list of contraindications. They were just going to send me away until I broke down crying explaining my job and my risk and my fear of catching covid. So I had to get two doctors to sign off on me getting the vaccine, and I had to make a special vaccine booking because they needed an NP to do a pre-screening and then I had to wait around for 3 hours afterwards and then get a post-vaccination check up and the NP had to sign off.
My booster shots were easier, because I just took my proof of vaccination certificate to the pharmacy and I didn’t even mention my underlying conditions. (I didn’t have that luxury the first time. I had to hand over my medical records to prove I was eligible for the first round of vaccinations. But after my first jab, the fact I had gotten my first dose was proof enough that I was previously approved to be part of the first round, so I didn’t need to present my records to get my boosters)
Trying to get an appointment with two separate doctors during a global pandemic for some red tape paperwork was like pulling teeth.
It should not have been that hard for someone to get a vaccine when they want one. I understood the risks. I’d rather die of a vaccine interaction that helps provide information that makea the vaccine safer for others, than just be another statistic of covid 19.
Americans are generally not taught what freedom means… or the careful dance between “freedom to” and “freedom from”. The “golden rule of liberty” - that “your rights end where mine begin, and vice versa” - is utterly alien to most of us. Anything that could limit someone’s “freedom to” is demonized, even when that limit is because the “to” in question brazenly violates everyone else’s “from”.
E.G. Rational Person: “I have a right to not be harmed by your actions.” Average Murican: “fAsCiSt!”
it absolutely occurred. fuck, where I was, the hospitals were already having yellow alerts (where they are full and cannot take new patients, so they have to be redirected), due to understaffing.
Then they had to deal with covid. Yeah, the vaccine worked amazingly well. So did lockdowns and travel restrictions.
2.5 million people, zero covid deaths in 2021.
Yes, I am happy about it. Go check Nikkei’s report on best recovering countries from COVID-19 we are 7th, you are probably from the US which was ranked 87th and with a much smaller death rate too than your “free” country. Keeping in mind people in the US had access to the vaccine before us, but many chose to enjoy the freedom of catching COVID instead.
In this study, vaccinated Omicron index case-patients seemed to have the same transmission capacity as nonvaccinated persons. We did not find this increased transmission capacity for the Delta variant, where significant differences in SAR were observed in global, household, and occupational settings (Table 1) within groups.
How one variant interacts with vaccination does not describe how every variant does; your own study is, at best, documenting an exeception to the rule that vaccines work.
They have shown high efficacy against these endpoints in experimental and observational studies (1–13). Evidence suggests that these vaccines also prevent infection (5, 14–18) and potentially reduce transmission (19–23), albeit with smaller effects against the highly transmissible Omicron variant compared with wildtype severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) and earlier variants (24–26).
The exception is Omicron, and evidently isn’t a complete exception anyway.
In addition, as this was a conversation originally about vaccine mandates, one of the first mandates in the US was put into effect ~2 months before Omicron was reported in Nov. 2021. So even if no vaccine or booster did anything to stop transmission of Omicron, the mandates were fully justified given the vaccines definitely did reduce transmission and severity of variants prior to that.
Yeah it makes more sense for vaccines that are, well, better at being vaccines. Something like MMR that actually is effective enough to create hurd immunity. Small pox vaccine was so good it eradicated the disease completely. Covid vaccines are more like flu vaccines - sometimes they work sometimes they don’t. It’s still better than nothing for >95% of people. There are those who respond badly to the covid vaccine too, so it’s technically a gamble either way. While the science says it’s better odds to have the vaccine than not, I can’t force people to take that risk with me.
The fact that freedom in the US is conflated with not getting the vaccine is incomprehensible. Something like vaccination should be mandatory with very limited exceptions for truly legitimate cases.
I’m old and I remember you just got your little shot card filled up before you went to school and that was that.
I love vaccines. I get any one I can.
I treat vaccines like pokemon…gotta catch em all. If someone offers me a vaccine, I’ll take it, even if it’s for something rare. I just want to be immunized against as many things as possible.
You still need that card. My kid would not be allowed into school without it.
Oh thank goodness.
Yeah, but nowadays it keeps track of different “shots”.
I don’t know why that is in quotes
Yeah I have a vaccine card from when I was a baby and I’m over 40 so I guess that it wasn’t in good faith.
Collect them all like Thanos and the infinity stones
There’s a saying I want to make famous: “One man’s freedom ends where another’s begins.” Your freedom not to take a vaccine only lasts as long as it does not affect your neighbor’s rights to live and breathe.
It’s a popular phrase already
I usually hear it as “Your right to swing your fist ends at my nose.”
Wearing a mask, quarantine and distancing protected your neighbor. The covid vaccines only protected yourself.
that’s only true if time doesn’t exist.
Given that time does exist, which part is false?
The part that this 2+ year old study doesn’t take into consideration Omicron vaccinations. You’ve been vaccinated against Omicron, like a normal, sane person, haven’t you? At the time this was written, they were only using original strain vaccinations. Where I am, in the present, you can’t even get those any more, they’re so far behind.
Or, are you an idiot, and basing decisions off of out of date papers? Because it seems like you might be.
I bet you don’t even understand how flu vaccines change.
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Oh look it’s an anti-vac moron in the wild!
Before anyone else engages with that user: it’s a troll. Don’t bother
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If you don’t understand virology you could just say that instead of being extremely wrong
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This is literally not understanding virology again
I’m not gonna tell you to take a college course or anything, they literally teach this stuff in first grade
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Literally expecting vaccines to be 100% effective at preventing the disease is the most wishful thinking anyone has ever had about a medical anything ever
A vaccine is not going to prevent it 100% of the time, and constant or frequent exposure to the virus in question will inevitably lead to infection
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As much as I like to make fun of the US, in this particular case I have to point out that a lot of other countries have antivaxxers.
Here in France we have an epidemic of them, and the numbers shows they really made covid worse. My own dad is one of them, and he told me dead serious he’d rather get sick than get any vaccine and that’s his choice and nobody should force him. He, and I guess most other antivax too, either does not understand the concept of herd immmunity or doesn’t care about other people.
Also in France… I have new neighbours since 2022 because the old people next door refused to get vaxxed. They both died from covid.
As an American it is horrifying to not be able to argue with this directly, because for every outward appearance it might as well be true.
But the argument I would make is that Americans are not the dumbest people in the world, Americans are simply allowed to survive and visibly prosper in spite of, and sometimes because of, their obvious stupidity. And combining this with the entitlement inherent in ‘just happening to be born here’ and the relative complete lack of suffering most of them experience, makes it easy for them to publicly hold opinions that people in most countries would either have to keep to themselves for their own personal safety, or just because few others are willing to join arms with them.
Basically it’s a constantly building bubble that could happen anywhere, and to smaller degrees probably happens all over the world in small communities, but here it’s a bubble that for some reason has been resistant to popping, to the point where any attempts to pop it are easily avoided due to it’s mass and ridiculously protective userbase.
Look at the UK and Brexit, or Russia and the mass of people outwardly supporting Putin, or the Middle East and apparent support of honor killings. Even if the majority of the people living in these areas don’t agree with this outward support, fear or resignation or something stops them from being the loud voice in the space. In the US it might be closer to resignation or hopelessness, but across the world we’re all really the same when you sit down and talk normally…there are stupid people everywhere you look, here we just don’t have a good way to embarrass them into shutting up.
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To be fair, America has a health system that gains from keeping people ill and medicated, and after Tuskegee there is little trust in the government either.
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That’s a large number of people to be irrational about.
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You live in LA dumbass 🤣
poor bastard was failed by the US schools, he doesn’t even know what country LA is in.
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Fuck off. You think tik tok and social media is reality? The reality is that there have always been willfully ignorant people and there always will be. In every population. Your generalizations really reflect yourself huh?
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But you can’t read books by black and/or gay authors in some states. The right only likes to cherry pick the freedoms.
They’ve become very anti freedom in fact. Unless it has something to do with a major lobby like guns, or letting corporations pollute air and water, they pretty much are pro restrictions on most things.
you can’t buy alcohol in some counties.
“I wanna make a medical choice about my own body…”
The Right: “Ummm…hold on now…”
“And skip my vaccinations!”
The Right: “Oh! You scared me for a second! Carry on then.”
You can’t get them in school liberties, they’re still available everywhere else
They also want to ban them from public libraries now. If successful, do you think they will stop there? I think it’s likely that they will keep pushing for more restrictions.
Heck, I had to fight to get the vaccine in my country.
I was working at a food bank during covid. I was coming face to face with 200 different people every day. Many of whom were covid positive but because they were homeless they had no where else to go.
I have a genetic condition that effects my sympathetic nervous system. I have sinus bradycardia, and chronic pulmonary congestion due to having over 10 bouts of aspiration pneumonia. On top of this I have an autoimmune condition. I was taking immunosuppression therapy in March 2020, I stopped taking because I couldn’t risk my immune system being suppressed in my line of work. I was so sick because of my untreated autoimmune condition, but I just had to deal with it.
In October we started rolling out the vaccine to our most vulnerable populous. I was eligible because of my autoimmune condition and I was first in line at my local vaccination centre.
But my genetic condition was on the list of contraindications. They were just going to send me away until I broke down crying explaining my job and my risk and my fear of catching covid. So I had to get two doctors to sign off on me getting the vaccine, and I had to make a special vaccine booking because they needed an NP to do a pre-screening and then I had to wait around for 3 hours afterwards and then get a post-vaccination check up and the NP had to sign off.
My booster shots were easier, because I just took my proof of vaccination certificate to the pharmacy and I didn’t even mention my underlying conditions. (I didn’t have that luxury the first time. I had to hand over my medical records to prove I was eligible for the first round of vaccinations. But after my first jab, the fact I had gotten my first dose was proof enough that I was previously approved to be part of the first round, so I didn’t need to present my records to get my boosters)
Trying to get an appointment with two separate doctors during a global pandemic for some red tape paperwork was like pulling teeth.
It should not have been that hard for someone to get a vaccine when they want one. I understood the risks. I’d rather die of a vaccine interaction that helps provide information that makea the vaccine safer for others, than just be another statistic of covid 19.
I’m honestly surprised the US isn’t like this just given how powerful big pharma is there
Vaccine darts would be a huge boon to public health.
Americans are generally not taught what freedom means… or the careful dance between “freedom to” and “freedom from”. The “golden rule of liberty” - that “your rights end where mine begin, and vice versa” - is utterly alien to most of us. Anything that could limit someone’s “freedom to” is demonized, even when that limit is because the “to” in question brazenly violates everyone else’s “from”.
E.G.
Rational Person: “I have a right to not be harmed by your actions.”
Average Murican: “fAsCiSt!”
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Because it lessens the severity of the illness?
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God I haven’t missed this dumb argument in the last 2 years.
Did you consider that it was mandated so that idiots would get it and avoid clogging up hospitals unnecessarily?
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it absolutely occurred. fuck, where I was, the hospitals were already having yellow alerts (where they are full and cannot take new patients, so they have to be redirected), due to understaffing.
Then they had to deal with covid. Yeah, the vaccine worked amazingly well. So did lockdowns and travel restrictions. 2.5 million people, zero covid deaths in 2021.
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except that the mandates ensured that the few times the virus got out, its spread was limited.
vaccine mandates were, are and will always be necessary.
You don’t need “data” to form a logical conclusion from data you already have.
Therefore, mandates reduce the burden on hospitals.
I’m so glad to live in a country with mandatory vaccination where conspiracy theorists aren’t given a platform
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Yes, I am happy about it. Go check Nikkei’s report on best recovering countries from COVID-19 we are 7th, you are probably from the US which was ranked 87th and with a much smaller death rate too than your “free” country. Keeping in mind people in the US had access to the vaccine before us, but many chose to enjoy the freedom of catching COVID instead.
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2024 and I’m still seeing this shit? Shut the fuck up.
how stupid are you
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tbh i dont even know if you are the person i replied to because the context button still doesnt work XD
How one variant interacts with vaccination does not describe how every variant does; your own study is, at best, documenting an exeception to the rule that vaccines work.
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https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10505422/#ref19
The exception is Omicron, and evidently isn’t a complete exception anyway.
In addition, as this was a conversation originally about vaccine mandates, one of the first mandates in the US was put into effect ~2 months before Omicron was reported in Nov. 2021. So even if no vaccine or booster did anything to stop transmission of Omicron, the mandates were fully justified given the vaccines definitely did reduce transmission and severity of variants prior to that.
Yeah it makes more sense for vaccines that are, well, better at being vaccines. Something like MMR that actually is effective enough to create hurd immunity. Small pox vaccine was so good it eradicated the disease completely. Covid vaccines are more like flu vaccines - sometimes they work sometimes they don’t. It’s still better than nothing for >95% of people. There are those who respond badly to the covid vaccine too, so it’s technically a gamble either way. While the science says it’s better odds to have the vaccine than not, I can’t force people to take that risk with me.
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