… That is a fuckin’ suspicious flower OP. I’m on to you! >.>

The giant corps are the ones massively involved in the black market :(

It’s probably not realistic to say no upside, as people usually do stuff for reasons even if it’s terrible overall. Like a bizarrely high proportion of people with schitzophrenia take nicotine so there probably is something it’s doing that helps in the moment.

There’s gonna be a market one way or the other. IMHO the government should step in to make it tightly controlled and low profit (if not nationalised). Also we should lynch everyone who’s ever taken a dollar of tobacco money but idk how broad support for that is.

Oh you’re that dipshit. Makes sense that you’re pearlclutching

This is completely off topic from what I was talking about with the other person, I really don’t know what you’re chiming in here for.

That is a separate issue. I’m trying to understand what their specific health concerns are, why it is they feel any amount of vaping represents an antisocial immediate health hazard distinct from say driving while unhealthy, tired or whatever or taking drugs known to increase violent tendencies like alcohol.

There is something they feel is different and I’m trying to unpick what it is. Like is there a specific chemical they believe even trace vaping exceeds safe limits of? a class like VOCs but are they also afraid to be around a stove etc? Is it fear of lack of regulations meaning unknown contamination could be present? Is it lack of precedent of characterised harms? (e.g. standing next to a stove while cooking seems about as unhealthy as being near most* vapes but we tend to be comfortable with poorly ventilated stoves and not with vapes because stoves are boring).

They unfortunately seem to thing my curiosity represents some hostility, despite having stated that I am in favour of regulation and basically just have a couple of quibbles with this law ¯_(ツ)_/¯

I will could you answer my question about fog machines though?

For both of our convenience I would really appreciate it if you just listed the specific concerns you had in mind, along with a primary source.

If a primary source is too much because you believe something is “common knowledge” (e.g. asking for a primary source on why to look both ways before crossing the road is a bit pedantic) a relevant Wikipedia page about the immediate health concern would be fine.

Let’s exclude popcorn lung (diacetyl damage) for aforementioned reasons.

I’d also like to ask, are you concerned about fog machines which also make a vapour of vegetable glycerine? Or are your concerns limited to flavour compounds and trace nicotine exposure?

What is the immediate health effect of a nearby vaper? Like seriously I actually don’t know of any solid evidence. In it’s most basic formulation it is literally just a fog machine.

Idk, my mum was born in Poland and came over to aus as a teen. She still seemed horrified, but also she was big on “assimilation” (as the country was at the time).

Oh but don’t they?

People who don’t do cardio might be more likely to have a heart attack while driving, or otherwise drive at a lower level of alertness (cardio improved cognitive performance and slows decline) hence increasing their chances of hitting someone.

Or perhaps they cost the state more in health (tbh probably like smokers they cost less but this is the common justification for the sin tax on smoking) which damages your ability to get your health issues attended too.

People drinking alcohol are more likely to engage in violence, and do actually pose a risk to people around them statistically.

Obvs this stuff is reaching, but so is most of the health stuff on vaping so far (most harm demonstrated is due to ‘popcorn lung’ which is basically a result of lack of regulation meaning a certain flavour got used despite this known side effect) and the point is we need to consider degrees.

We live in a society and there aren’t super clear boundaries on what we ought to be able to do. The current proposed law, which again I’m broadly in favour of, does massively fuck up by placing vapes under the TGA. That means they need to be regulated as medical devices which means unless you can show a vape has a medical reason to be on the market it wont be approved.

Since that will never happen (except, maybe as a cessation tool but the TGA will have high standards of evidence) this is still a ban on vaping, just the long way round. Note how CBD is legal and OTC except there are no approved CBD products for OTC.

One of the points in my waking up to carnism was when I mentioned an interest in hunting rabbits (a so called invasive pest here) over dinner with my family as a late teen.

My father expressed an incredible disgust at the idea of hunting, made some comment about sadists or something. The rest of my family were more reserved but similarly aghast, that I would be willing to participate in the process by which meat, which we were eating, was created represented some sort of character flaw.

Yet at the time we had gone fishing, and I had done work experience on a farm. I volunteered at the school farm and had raised broiler chickens and helped load them onto a truck to a slaughterhouse.

It made me realise how utterly disconnected we all were and how the people around me were utterly repulsed by the violence required for their pleasures.

I moved out shortly after and went pescatarian largely due to the soul searching that prompted. Becoming vegan later when I realised Nirvana lied to me.

isn’t it just? My favourite is “While 99% of all meat comes from factory farms, no one eats that meat.”

Not a single person I’ve ever spoken to about veganism, not at demonstrations or privately, has ever admitted to eating factory farmed meat.

Is it all some bizarre welfare system? the butchers/supermarkets/delies just buy it from the farmers and throw it out?

You don’t think this list is comedy? Baffling!

The problem is this applies equally well to stuff like eating fast food or not doing cardio 3x a week.

I’m an ex smoker for context, I hate this fucking shit but we don’t offer any real support to prevent addiction and just punish people for it.

I’m 100% plain packaging and selling behind counter (for all drugs, all products really ought to have advertising bans and plain packaging but I’ll never win that one). I’m also in favour of making addicting stuff boring. But after that people are ultimately free to make bad choices (I write, sprawled with terrible posture, a glass of wine, and some chips) and leaving the TGA to authorise these will mean none get approved and a black market will be created anyway.

what’s the fine for this: https://youtu.be/CyJvZ1IS-bI?si=VI-KVW6baIUr9DuE ?

milquetoast btw https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milquetoast

confusing isn’t it?

Tofu and tempeh are cheap, the rest are junk foods largely marketed towards lactose intolerant people and carnists with a guilty conscience.

Standard plant based food is like bean or lentil stew. Not hotdogs except molecular gastronomy.

Could you be more explicit? Like what are the foods and clothing etc suggested by militant vegans that are luxury goods?

So meat eaters and strawberry eaters are privileged? I am unsure of your point here?

It is true that not eating strawberries and not eating meat are both accessible outside the global north or w/e.

Are you vegan, because all of those second paragraph things are associated with veganism.

Well idk about taco bell cause I’m not a seppo but literally when I told me sister I was going vegan and asked if she had advice she said “Sour patch kids and oreos are vegan”