i wish no harm to american ruling class, my enemy is the american people
one person say that barbarism critic is “the brianna wu of 2025. Remember kids I called it”
i guess there is some very real perceived material interests of americans to continue the genocide in palestine, like the christian zionists, or the liberals who want to continue the american dominance via global hegemony, and the labor aristocrats in america who want the treats.
i was listening to rev left radio “The Long Transition Towards Socialism and the End of Capitalism” with Torkil Lauesen and, probably gonna butcher it - but my understanding is that as we enter a multipolar world, the americans will not be able to blatantly exploit the over-exploited nations (global south) leading to increasingly deteriorating conditions in the imperial core, which will set the grounds very clearly between socialism and barbarism?
and we are to organize and help alleviate the woes of the people which also serve as a way of building relations that lead to building power via organizations.
(iirc the bolsheviks has above ground orgs and underground orgs for the law breaking stuff)
eh i dunno just over analyzing what do you peeps think.
Speaking of “calling it”, I wonder if there was anyone on here who called out that tweeter months ago for being the civility lib that they are.
even being an empoc and trans hostage of this hellstate i can’t really fault the global south for feeling this way and wouldn’t care to argue about it. that said i am absolutely discounting it when it comes from eurolibs in the imperial bloc (this includes canada and au/nz) and self-flagellating americans, that shit is goofy as hell.
Hey I’m not a “self-flagellating American”, I just have my own reasons to despise the United States
That is to say, when that type of rhetoric comes from residents of Canada, Australia, Europe, and Aotearoa whose anti-Americanism reflects the national-bourgeois envy in these regions for the USA’s economic hegemony; and when this type of rhetoric comes from US residents who need to self-flagellate to ritualistically absolve themselves of any responsibility to actually work against the systems they benefit from, right?
Edit: For that matter, the Canuc-Kiwi-Aussi-Euro types who need to always point out how America Bad in order to distract from their own countries’ atrocities.
yes? though i’m additionally saying that the rest of the imperial bloc is often also playing at absolution from responsibility in working against systems from which they also benefit, which put charitably is disingenuous. western europe isn’t solely ‘envious’, they actively benefit from imperialism -right now-, as do the other anglo settler colonies besides the US.
Yeah, I edited my comment to mention that fact about 34 seconds before you replied (sorry!), because really that is a huge part of the issue that should not be omitted or forgotten. I like to call that the “Spiderman point strat”. You also see this with people in the USA talking about Japan discriminating against Zainichi Koreans, or with Zionist settlers suddenly caring a whole awful lot about the plight of the West Papuans and Iroquois. Everybody in the imperial core just loves to distract from their own atrocities by pointing to others’, it seems.
One other thought I’ve kept coming back to when it comes to Europe’s relationship to the USA, though, both in terms of that “Eurolib” anti-Americanism as well as paradoxically Europeans’ fetish for all things American, is that this relationship at least partly serves to reproduce settlerism and US hegemony, by basically making it harder for people to move from the USA to Europe and stay there. I could go on about this but I don’t want to ramble.
100% agree, all very good points and wrt Europe/USA that is definitely a very interesting perspective on the interplay and I think it has legs
It’s a perspective informed by lived experience, so I would certainly hope it has legs.
It’s hilarious how much USAmericans shits their pants whenever anyone shows them the same sort of contempt they have for the rest of humanity lmao
You don’t get to seamlessly go from “Glass the middle east/China/Russia/North Korea!” to “Why can’t we all just get along?” without people asking questions
A few settlers even telling on themselves in this thread by jumping straight to “Americans will be exterminated and put in camps” panic. I wonder what level of “collateral damage” these people are actually willing to endure to bring about change.
God i wish we were exterminated
What is going on in this thread? We’re just going to argue over the idea of hating the American people instead of the far more glaring issue of them (joking about) not hating the ruling class? As far as I’m concerned they should hate both
I don’t expect working class solidarity from the people at the imperial core while they are still benefactors from my oppression, even if it is indirectly. They should already know that their luxuries are in great part a product of our exploitation and if they are ignorant about it it is not my fault, fuck them. The day I see them organized and giving substantial help to our struggles in the global south I might change my mind. They are not willing to give up their privileges in order to enact real and concrete international solidarity.
“Workers of the world unite” is a nice phrase, but call me when there are any American blue/white collar workers organized with Congolese cobalt miners or Mexican factory workers.
The same amount of money that can feed a Global South worker for a month is spent in a weekend to buy useless shit for fun by an average American/Western-European worker, the latter is not prepared to renounce to their treats. Maybe one day they won’t be able to afford them anymore… I wanna see how they will react.
You do realize that most of the workers in the imperial core are also exploited right? And that our government has been proven to not represent us? We live in an oligarchy.
Here’s the thing: yes, a worker in the imperial core is exploited. You might be getting paid $14/hr to produce $25/hr of value for a corporation. This is how capitalist production works, we all know it and we all want to abolish it. But there’s a few things that, from the perspective of a periphery worker, are incredibly relevant here:
- The vast majority of the productive labor in the world economy actually happens in the periphery and semi-periphery nations. The most relevant sector of economic production within the core is capital intensive production of technological goods and weapons. So it’s the periphery that is actually feeding* the world and producing the world’s clothes. (*Of course, there is plenty of agrarian production within the core too, but it often relies on the exploitation of undocumented migrant labor or just explicit slave labor through prison slavery, which I argue is significantly distinct from the capitalist mode of production)
- The US dollar’s value is tied to the circulation of the natural resources and exploited labor previously discussed, not the United States’ production. The US dollar is the world’s reserve currency and as long as a supermajority of critical resources are traded in USD, every country will want to export goods in exchange for dollars, even if the US printed trillions and trillions of dollars. And US private banks have done exactly that, giving US consumers a ridiculous amount of buying power to consume the commodities produced abroad.
- Due to the hugely inflated value of a US dollar, a worker in the imperial core that gets paid in dollars, British Pounds, or Euro is simply not in anywhere near the same league as a Sri Lankan seamstress that’s earning the equivalent of $270 a year to sew clothes that will sell for 40x that amount when they get shipped to the US.
Is it in the seamstress’ interest in any way for imperial core workers to become politically organized and overthrow capitalism in their countries? Yes, of course! But with the incentive structure at hand, labor unions in the core aren’t political vanguards attempting to overthrow capital, they’re willing accomplices in imperialism who want a bigger slice of the pie. The question should then be, how can we get imperial core workers to organize against their own best interest to overthrow imperialism, a system that benefits them?
(*Of course, there is plenty of agrarian production within the core too, but it often relies on the exploitation of undocumented migrant labor or just explicit slave labor through prison slavery, which I argue is significantly distinct from the capitalist mode of production)
No it isn’t. Capitalism would of never existed as it does without slavery. The capitalists would enslave the whole world if they could get away with it. And look at how debt is used globally… not all forms of slavery are chattel slavery / trans Atlantic slave trade kind of slavery.
- The US dollar’s value is tied to the circulation of the natural resources and exploited labor previously discussed, not the United States’ production. The US dollar is the world’s reserve currency and as long as a supermajority of critical resources are traded in USD, every country will want to export goods in exchange for dollars, even if the US printed trillions and trillions of dollars. And US private banks have done exactly that, giving US consumers a ridiculous amount of buying power to consume the commodities produced abroad.
And that is backed by the US military which US taxpayers pay out the ass for instead of getting nice things like healthcare or higher education or high speed rail, etc. and we’re not represented by our politicians, our whole system is totally rigged in favor of a wealthy minority who manipulate the elections, the media, and the politicians themselves.
I think a real majority actually don’t agree with our imperialism but due to structural issues are powerless to do anything meaningful about it. And class consciousness is minimal. More than half the country is at like a sixth grade reading level thanks to the imperial core being intentionally rotted out so the capitalists can amass even more wealth because somehow their billions are not already enough.
No it isn’t. Capitalism would of never existed as it does without slavery. The capitalists would enslave the whole world if they could get away with it. And look at how debt is used globally… not all forms of slavery are chattel slavery / trans Atlantic slave trade kind of slavery.
Capitalism doesn’t just mean capitalists accumulating capital, it also involves a specific social relation between capitalists and workers. The American antebellum South wasn’t capitalist (in fact, it’s often the premiere example of primitive accumulation of capital, a.k.a pre-capitalism), and the shift from the slavery/'modern feudal mode of production to industrial capitalism was a big qualitative change that caused the American civil war. I’d argue that the economic relation of modern day undocumented immigrants also doesn’t fit into the same mode of capitalist production relations. This isn’t really germane to my point though, I think there’s plenty of room to disagree and still end up at more or less the same conclusion as long as we can agree that the workers inside the core who are doing a lot of the “dirty work” in slaughterhouses and farms are not just quantitatively different to the rest of the proletariat due to compensation, but also qualitatively different in their ability (or lack thereof) to organize and wield any kind of political power. They are an underbelly that the rest of the imperial core proletarians don’t perceive as members of the same class.
And that is backed by the US military which US taxpayers pay out the ass for instead of getting nice things like healthcare or higher education or high speed rail, etc. and we’re not represented by our politicians, our whole system is totally rigged in favor of a wealthy minority who manipulate the elections, the media, and the politicians themselves.
You’re completely wrong here. The US taxpayer doesn’t pay for crap. This economic model you’re thinking of where US government spending is financed by taxpayers is a myth perpetuated by neoliberal ideologues, and it’s somehow pervasive even in leftist circles. There’s a lot I can say about currency and Modern Monetary Theory, but it’s a very broad topic, the main takeaway is that when you use fiat currency the point of taxes is not to finance government spending, but to limit the political power of different social classes. The US Treasury is totally free to keep bankrolling US military spending and other subsidies to the imperialist class precisely because the US dollar’s value has nothing to do with it being a balanced reserve currency or anything like that, that ship has long since sailed since the Bretton Woods system was abandoned. The US will just keep growing its national debt as a service to the international rentier class who can build enormous amounts of wealth by collecting interest payments on US treasury bonds, but if the US Federal Reserve wasn’t privately controlled they could just as easily eliminate all that debt in one day by minting a coin worth however many trillions of dollars. They could operate their military without taxing the American worker 1 cent.
I’ll leave you with a couple of links because I recognize it’s a bit of a paradigm shift to see that US government spending is not at all financed by taxes, to the point that it seems illogical.
- Comrade xiahongshu’s excellent breakdown of gestures broadly basically the whole global financial system in response to some misunderstandings of a contemporaneous news item on the Saudis emitting bonds in USD with China
- Yanis Varoufakis explaining the nature of money
- Richard Wolff and Michael Hudson on America’s Collapse, Economy, and Endless War
You don’t even need MMT to argue against the idea that taxes pay for the military.
The US sells about $1T in bonds annually and spends about $900B on the military annually. Taxes never need to come into play.
Excellent observation. Still, though, having some understanding of what actually gives the US dollar its value is very relevant to this conversation so it’s worth considering the rest of the deal to understand how imperialism makes the periphery work overtime to keep the US dollars that the labor aristocracy uses to buy imported goods as a valid currency despite the fact the US doesn’t have a balanced budget.
I found YouTube links in your comment. Here are links to the same videos on alternative frontends that protect your privacy:
Link 1:
Link 2:
Reading into this too much is dumb. Random poster fight on the internet. Yeah, there’s a lot of reactionary Americans. Hate them sure. Hating all Americans is obviously dumb and misanthropic, though I don’t blame people who are victims of US imperialism for feeling that way.
That’s pretty much it.
Hating all Americans is obviously dumb and misanthropic
It seems you have mistyped “based and correct”
I think all white americans are evil [big headed scientist] creations and should be eradicated because they are not human.
This is completely sincere if it doesnt get removed and it is completely a joke in minecraft if it does get removed
Most people in the global North but especially Americans only seem to get indignant over consumer issues. Like the arguments of not being able to afford quality boots or 1000 hour lightbulbs. Or whining they can’t afford eggs in response to prospect of the US expanding its borders and all the bloodshed that could lead to.
Without real theory, these ideas collapse into ur-fascist nostalgia.
My favorite is complaining about “Biden’s gas prices*” while driving tanks to run errands
*I hate biden but he has no control over the gas prices
Like the arguments of not being able to afford quality boots or 1000 hour lightbulbs
This shit is beyond absurd to me, an American. Like why the fuck are you having an aneurysm over the store not having the right brand of bread
The imperial core has already been hollowed out. Multipolarity doesn’t even matter we’ve been quickly hollowing out since the 1970s as the ruling class learned they can get nearly slave labor abroad and they shipped all of our manufacturing to cheap or worse labor elsewhere.
As an American I hate Americans. I feel bad for those misled and manipulated but a good chunk of them think we should just nuke the Middle East and be done with it.
Would she hold it against a Palestinian from Gaza who prays that the fire completely consume LA?
imo they’re mostly just tone-policing this “Miroslav” person. Broadly if people outside the US say that kind of stuff I’m sympathetic to it because they’ve been on the receiving end of US economic warfare or military intervention.
If somebody had a sincere conversation with them rather than an antagonistic back-and-forth on hitlerite social media, they probably wouldn’t elaborate their beliefs as a genuine desire to see every person in the US die or suffer.
Yeah this. Zero empathy from the supposed internationalists. I think the issue is, and always will be, that white people are too easily offended.
That isn’t an internationalist, it’s a libbed up honky.
Idk what their actual supposed views are, nor do I care, but they come outright and say that they will refuse to work with the international proletariat if they say uncivil things about the same Americans that have unleashed hell the world over.
they probably wouldn’t elaborate their beliefs as a genuine desire to see every person in the US die or suffer
but even if they did…
spoiler
JUST KIDDING IM KIDDING ITS A JOKE OKAY
I mean, as a Burger, I had someone from Sarajevo basically tell me she hates all Americans and especially anyone who was ever in the US military. I wasn’t fully aware of US/western intervention and influence in the Balkans back then, so I didn’t understand the resentment. I asked her and she told me about growing up seeing her country destroyed. All you can really say to something like that is “Oh… I understand then.”
We actually became friends after that. She was a bio student like me at the time and knew a lot of interesting stuff from the Soviet times. I would ask her to tell me more about her country, and she would ask me about…guns. Valuable cultural exchange?
Living in the imperial core I make not that much more than @[email protected], less than a factor of 4 in nominal terms, less than a factor of 2 in PPP. Yet I consider myself fairly well-off; I have the chance to advance myself due to not engaging in the shocking level of hyperconsumption that most people around me engage in.
i mean someone on this site told me that sandy hook was good because those kids were growing up in Connecticut, so they’re gonna turn out to be insurance execs and bankers anyways which is way worse than what this dude said
Oh boy, that user was banned not too long after that at least. The early site was full of this sort of insanity.
But not for this comment tho for some other bullshit a year afterwards
Yep, that was pretty par for the course early on. We hadn’t quite figured out moderation (we were the largest instance by a wide margin back then). Plus we were a lifeboat for basically all left and left adjacent subs that got scrubbed, meaning we got a bunch of the nazbol and cumtown subs showing up.
I refuse to believe that isn’t a bit
I like that the last reply got 3 upbears
While that dude ain’t wrong about Connecticut we’re talking about children here. If these kids mattered to our oligarchs they’d do something about our gun problem. But they don’t! Now if another Luigi happens I can see some gun control being demanded.
6 year olds man
It’s so fucking sad. I’m pro gun rights from a leftist perspective but there needs to be some limitations to prevent these things as best as possible (and ya know fixing our mental health system)
The only good yank is a dead yank
Following that logic there are millions of good yanks and we all end up good in the end :(.
We should all try getting good sooner
Is it adventurism if its self inflicted
Kamikaze
Maoist third-worldist that supports reactionary, bourgeois movements in the global north solely because it oppresses westerners.
Based based based
I made a joke a while ago about a MTW guy who likes the electoral college giving disproportionately more power to rural states because the countryside surrounds the city. If we work hard enough, we could come up with a whole ideology here.
memeing posadism 2.0 into existence
Critical support to the ghoul squad ✊
A person who is okay with the American ruling class but hates regular Yanks is obviously imaginary, so the left being criticized here is the one that wishes ill on regular Americans (in this case probably the victims of those fires in California). I would compare those leftists to so-called anti-white racists or misandrists, in that they do not exist in any real social way and as far as they have an ideology it has absolutely no vitality. Similarly, criticizing them as if they are a danger to the movement is a form of white/male/Yank chauvinism, respectively.
Im a real anti white racist and misandrist and i think i deserve political powet
Sign my petitipn and listen to my podcast
