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How about Lemmy.World?
The admins stated on Mastodon that they’re not going to defederate until something happens. Knowing Meta they shouldn’t give them the chance.
Here’s the link: https://mastodon.world/@mwadmin/110654590632768079
Thats unfortunate. I’ll be moving instances then. Giving Meta a chance is a lot like giving a mosquito a chance to not suck your blood.
Its like that story of the frog helping the scorpion cross the river.
How do you move? I signed up through .world but don’t want a chance of touching the poo (meta).
You just make a new account with another instance. You get about the same content as before.
If you consume only - yes. if create something - not that easy.
This behavior is why the fediverse alienate users and makes it hostile for new people to join.
They didn’t do anything, yet. Give them the chance but start with 2 strikes on their account already. They fuck up, THEN you defederate. Innocent until proven otherwise.
Edit: go on, downvote me. Show me your face. Show me how you’re all against growth on Lemmy and niceness to each other.
Innocent until proven otherwise.
Corporations like Meta have shown time and time again that they cannot be trusted to play nice with anyone else. Have we already forgotten about Cambridge Analytica or the plethora of other scandals they’ve been at the center of? The proof has been in plain view for a while now.
They don’t get more data because they’re federated. They literally the exact same amount of data as they do know just by scraping mastodon or Lemmy. They’re an even player in this market. Somehow you all keep forgetting that. If you don’t want meta do have data from activity pub, you being here already violates that ideal.
Okay, but that doesn’t address any of the points I brought up.
You said to give Meta a chance. The rest of us are broadly gesturing at all the shit they’ve done in the past, and how we want as little to do with that as possible.
There is nothing they can do to fuck up your experience, ESPECIALLY on Lemmy though. Threads is a completely different concept from Lemmy and activity pub is well defined.
The only thing they could do is just not moderate threads and therefore putting spam in everyone’s feeds. That’s about it. I don’t think they’re leaving that unmoderated.
Innocent until proven otherwise.
There are many years of proof already about facebook/meta acting very maliciously, actively breaking laws and being fined for it, is that not proof enough? How many more do you need before you can say they’re not innocent at all?
Innocent until proven otherwise is a concept for criminal court.
We aren’t putting someone in jail, we are looking at their past business practices and deciding not to do business with them based on their obvious habits.
If you disagree with me, we’ll then you’re just against niceness, admit you are! Admit you’re against niceness!
troll
“until something happens”
I suppose Metas history of actively being a bad actor working against societies best interests and enabling hate groups doesn’t qualify as ‘something’…
yeah that this point meta just existing is bad
You didn’t say anything of substance.
They had more substance than your comment.
Yours is of less substance than areogel.
Oh, looks like I’m switching instances.
And done. I love federation.
Same here, partner. Moved yesterday.
This is great. Then all the people complaining that lemmy.world is “too big” can now be appeased with others leaving lemmy.world. Glad to see the community solve each other’s problems organically! :)
How do you do that? I’m subscribed to like 50 conmunities. Would I have to start all over? That doesn’t sound like it’s worth it.
Just gonna name-drop the tool I made to do this :) https://github.com/CMahaff/lasim
It’s only been out a few days, let me know if you have any issues!
Awesome! I was hoping this would be possible. I plan to host my own instance hobbit.world and would need to migrate everything.
Also, I’ll defederate any corporate instances. No need to encourage bad actors.
If you’re creating an instance that will not federate with corporate instances, then I would love to join.
Thanks. I liked .world but no way will I let meta in.
Thanks for making this!
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Thanks for this! Just gave this a try, downloaded from .world just fine, but uploading to .ml gives this error: ERROR: Failed Login - HTTP status client error (403 Forbidden) for url (https://lemmy.ml/api/v3/user/login)
That usually means wrong username/password! But if you’re sure, I can make an account on lemmy.ml and give it a shot.
Thanks for the feedback. The username and password are indeed correct. I copied and pasted from Bitwarden and used the exact same ones to login to the lemmy.ml site. I do wonder if there is some sort of anti-bot measures that Colonel Sanders mentioned below.
Also: I tried just my username vs email but neither worked and I also don’t have MFA enabled yet. Super weird.
EDIT: opened an issue on Github: https://github.com/CMahaff/lasim/issues/4
Thanks for this!
Honestly it isn’t. Nothing about the Fediverse is private or inherently secure in that way. Everything is public. And you should assume that everything you publish through activity pub could eventually be looked at by anyone. If you want private or secure messaging there are non-activity pub open source secure alternate. In fact signing up for Lemmy there’s even a field to enter for one. Whether or not a server federates with meta. Meta is still going to data mine the ever-loving shit out of all of them. The point is. None of us are at Meta’s wim about being flooded with their toxic content.
Honestly I want to see meta flooded with our content. So much anti-threads anti Meta sentiment. Actual leftists. And not just make believe right-wing liberals who’ve been conditioned to think that they are left. It would be hilarious to watch Meta try to play wack-a-mole sanitizing everything. To please their reptilian corporate overlords. And if you don’t care and just don’t want to see it. You can always block them personally. Why let them data mine in peace. I say we make them work for it.
I’m not real sure how much the Threads Algorithm is going to pass through Mastodon content (and even less sure if it will even be able to pass through Lemmy content). I think the much more valuable aspect is you can pitch your Threads friends that they can move to the Fediverse and actually get to choose what content they see rather than which influencers paid Meta to fill up your feed.
It’s not really about privacy, though. It’s about the risk of Meta going “Embrace, extend, extinguish” on the fediverse, and the only way to protect against that is by not letting them interact with the majority of it from the get-go. https://ploum.net/2023-06-23-how-to-kill-decentralised-networks.html
People keep saying that. Like it’s something that actually happens. And let’s be clear, it has happened with a number of commercial products. But Microsoft and others have never managed to EEE email, HTTP/HTTPS, Usenet, Linux, Java even. And they’ve tried haaaaaaaaaard. Google didn’t EEE XMPP either. It still exists. I use it daily. The author is misrepresenting what happened.
What happened is that too many people felt obligated to work with corporation that had little interest in working with them. Rather than to focus on their own system and continue to update or develop it. Neglecting their core user base, chasing after people who didn’t seek it out and didn’t care what they were using so long as it worked. They wasted time and effort. But Google didn’t actually kill anything. And all the people using Google talk typically weren’t interested about XMPP in the first place and never would be.
It goes beyond that even. Lemmy is developed by socialists. And not just the more reasonable bunch of socialists like myself. But straight up militant leninists. They’re part of the core development team if not the whole thing. And they have no interest in catering to or coddling misbehaving corporations. They are going to do what they want and what they feel they need to do when they need to do it. And if meta or anyone else tries to screw it up. They’re not going to pay one single bit of attention to them and just keep on doing what they’ve been doing
I got like 150, that wouldn’t stop me. Plus you can use curl to export the list of the instances you’re subscribed to on your account.
I don’t understand.
I don’t do coding or dark web stuff so I don’t know all the lingo.
There are some tools in the plugins section on sh.itjust.works: [email protected].
https://lemmy.world/post/1171660
This is a tool with a GUI that does profile migration. You can use it in Windows and Linux. It migrates almost everything, including subscribed communities.
There is a python script floating around that will sync your communities, etc. I’d link but don’t have it handy.
I don’t code.
Here is the script. It’s already written, you just need to run it:
Alternatively, there is a browser bookmark that kinda does the same thing: https://feddit.de/post/808717
you can find all sorts of things to customize lemmy over at [email protected] or https://sh.itjust.works/c/plugins (shameless plug)
💀
Bloody hell, I literally just switched to Lemmy.world, do I really need to switch to Lemmy.ml? Come on guys
I switched to lemm.ee
They’re still federated with exploding-heads and rammy.site so they didn’t make my short list
Oh damn guess I will migrate to lemmy.ml and use that until I find out if lemmy.world defederates or not. (Edit turns out it is run by tankies and they are federated with lemmygrad.) While I may or may not stay on lemmy.world depending on if we federate with meta or not. I will no longer suggest Lemmy.ml.
You can read the lemmy.world admin response here
Thank you and the other admins for the thoughtful and transparent answer.
We would like to express our disappointment with the negative and threatening tone of some of these discussions
Considering that a great percentage of the Fediverse userbase are ex-users of Reddit and Twitter that left due to CEO actions, I get that they (including me) don’t trust Meta or want anything to do with them. I agree that discussion should be civil nonetheless.
Is mastodon.world the same as lemmy.world?
The admin is the same person, so is expected that they apply the same policy for both instances.
until something happens
What exact behaviors are they looking for that would cause them to push the block button?
Threads can do very well for themselves without the fediverse as they are already demonstrating. What real motive do they have to join the fediverse except to shut it down?
Heck yeah. That’s a very balanced and rational approach completely unfuelled by emotions.
Can’t say the same for the top comment in this thread, lol.
Facebook doesn’t give a shit about its users and treats them and their data as a crop to harvest. On Meta platforms, you’re the product. On the fediverse, you’re just another user, free to do what you want. Disgust is indeed an emotion, and I’m 100% fine with being disgusted with Meta.
So far on Lemmy I had never looked for the option to block a single user. You have changed that.
Tolerance paradox applies here too
The discussion is still on-going.
What is there to discuss?
I want to be on an instance that defederates, I will move if world does not do it.
Be a lot cooler if they did.
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You can read the lemmy.world admin response here
You can read the lemmy.world admin response here
I don’t know. I would like to subscribe to someone on Threads from Mastodon (since both are Twitter alternatives), if they don’t have Mastodon account (which let’s be honest they probably don’t). Zuck does not get any of my data (besides what’s available publicly anyway). If Threads decides to go full EEE, I’ll stop getting updates from people on Threads, same as I don’t get updates from people on IG right now. I think proliferation of ActivityPub protocol would be the greatest advantage.
Moreover, I think we should follow the email architecture - I might use i.e. Proton Mail, but it does not prevent me from sending emails to Gmail, which I think is a bad provider, who collects a lot of user data. In fact if Proton Mail forbade sending email to Gmail I would be really displeased about that.
The goal is to allow people to choose where they want to go and ActivityPub is what can help with that, unlike blocking Threads.
I couldn’t agree more. Racing to block Threads when it’s completely unclear if Threads will even actually ever federate and what the implications of them federating will even be seems incredibly short sighted. Imagine how much innovation would have been lost on the internet if web server admins raced to block Google Chrome from accessing their content because they have some personal beef with Google.
i ONLY want to conter your argument with email and activityhub: on email people choose to send stuff to a very limited amount of people except maybe newsletter and scammers. with threads, which should have already multiple times of osers compared to the fediverse, will flood the content to /all. Of course there are cool people but i think the entire fediverse culture will be blown away by threads in an instand. And with their weird moderation (especcially small) servers here will have large problems trying to moderate it
but by email there is no mass broadcasting to the public so it does not need to be moderated
Email is not only 1:(small N). Maillists do exist and and are used to facilitate discussions between a large amount of people via email. They are also often public so anonymous readers and search indexers can use them.
/allis certainly an interesting thing - default Active sorting calculates a rank based on the score and time of the latest comment, with decay over time. If Threads are connected they would dominate/all. But there can certainly be adjustments, we can create a new sorting style, and make it default. For example:- Posts are deprioritized based on MAU or some similar metric. The larger the MAU, the lower the post is ranked assuming the same engagement. If the post got 100 upvotes on an instance with 1000 users, it’s probably a much more interesting post, than the post that got 100 upvotes on an instance with 100 000 000 users.
- Posts are (de)prioritized based on instance source. For example setting Threads to -1000 would effectively remove it, setting Threads to -50 would allow you to see only super active posts. On the other hand if we want to see more content from less populated instance we might set it (i.e. german lemmy feddit.de) to the score of 100.
- Instances can provide a limited number or percentage of
/all- i.e. after we got 10 posts from Threads, stop getting posts from this instance.
i did not know about the weights. That is very interesting, good written and i would say that you topped my argument. Thank you ^^
As I understand it, and I probably don’t, you can subscribe, you just won’t see anything from threads except what’s re-shared, or you’ve subscribed to.
You may see things from other instances your instance has federated with.
Well done. I hope more of the fediverse follows suit. Facebook has a long way to go to restore trust – if that’s possible at all. They’re nowhere near that threshold yet.
This is not particularly surprising. Lemmy was started as an anti-corporate project by leftists after /r/chapotraphouse got quarantined and later banned (subreddit for the most popular podcast and most donated patreon at the time), with the explicit goal of preventing corporate control from being able to silence leftists when they’re blasting off. CTH was skyrocketing in subscribers at the time it was quarantined on August 8th 2019, and when even quarantining didn’t stop its growth or slow down its activity afterwards Reddit pulled the plug under the excuse it promoted violence, but the only particularly edgy thing ever said there was “slave owners should be killed” and support for John Brown. This evolved post-ban into the assessment that Spez banned it because he wants to own slaves.
When that happened there was a massive shift in the leftist parts of reddit as we very quickly realised we’d be targeted if reddit ever deemed us to be too successful, and projects like Lemmy began in reaction. CTH’s community in fact moved to Lemmy 3 years ago, and resides on Hexbear.net but has not yet joined the rest of federated lemmy due to technical issues (it used to be a fork with a different front end).
Given lemmy’s specific anti-corporate origins seeing Lemmy.ml do this should surprise nobody. It’s the correct move anyway.
Always love to hear the deep lore. Lemmy’s early development makes a lot more sense now. Good on them(you) to leave everything open and learn from Reddit’s mistakes.
Still, free and open has a limit. No Facebook and no Nazis. That’s just common sense everyone used to have.
Lemmy.world needs to follow
Fantastic news! Can we please do the same on lemmy.world? Please?
I mean, if Lemmy.world doesn’t when they decide to try and move in, I’ll just move on to the next site that does. Prolly Lemmy.ml
I’m pretty conflicted about this I gotta say.
You shouldn’t be. These companies are not here to play along, but dominate. Just like reddit played along with 3rd party developers until it didn’t need them anymore, so will Meta use the openess of the protocol to ultimately undermine it.
Embrace --> Extend --> Extinguish ^------- Facebook is currently hereThey are, but we should figure out how to beat them at their game. They’ll probably manage to get custody of the remainder of the decent people from twitter, being able at an individual level to follow a single person over there without having to hear from all the people over there would be a better solution.
Right now we lack the proper tools to keep them at bay without massive moderation on our end so blocking them is best, but we can eventually work out a middleground.
(Apparently) Unpopular Opinion: I think defederating Threads is the wrong move, because it just locks people into Threads. If people on Twitter had the ability to move to Mastodon AND still interact with all the people they did before, I think we would have seen even more people move. The only reason I still check twitter at all is because I have a few close friends who didn’t move. Meta is likely going to have big adoption of people who aren’t ready to go to Mastodon, but are interested in getting out of the dumpster-on-fire that twitter seems to continue to be. But blocking those people from being able to join the more popular Lemmy instances, given no actual policy violations, just will keep people in Meta that otherwise could leave. With the “however” being: It’s not quite clear to me that Threads users will be interacting with Lemmy as much Mastodon, if Threads were a Reddit replacement, it’s more directly connected.
Fully agree. It would be like saying people with @gmail addresses can’t email people on @someFederated.com email addresses. Also I think (and correct me if I’m wrong here) the idea of “defederating” gives power to some in a way we hated reddit admins having power. Suddenly it’s “totally the fediverse except when…”.
Imo fuck that. If I don’t like threads I won’t use threads the same way if I don’t like lemmy.someinstance I won’t interact with lemmy.someinstance. leave it open and let the users choose. But also let’s educate. Some will listen and some will roll their eyes. But it’s a choice.
Threads got 80 million users in 48h. Those people are not gonna use Mastodon anyway. They don’t care about their privacy, they don’t care that some proprietary algorithm is gonna decide what they will see, they don’t care that it’s Facebook. Those people have no standards. The only way we can help them is by educating them and if that doesn’t change their mind, then there is nothing we can do, because freedom and privacy is not something they value. People who value them are capable of making a small sacrifice of not using some website when an alternative exists.
Facebook either just wants to use the Fediverse for their own benefit or they want to destroy it before it becomes a bigger competitor. We shouldn’t risk all that we have built just because we live in an ignorant society that doesn’t understand technology.
Just because they won’t use Mastodon now, doesn’t mean they never will in the future. Especially when (not if) Mastodon sorts out some of their usability issues around signup and interacting with posts from other instances.
It would be nice to give them the option.
We need to build a strong society that isn’t dependent on big corporations for being able to do the most basic things like talking to each other. The usability issues seem like a tiny price to pay for that and for privacy and freedom of speech. Those people can join Mastodon any time if they wish. But if Facebook manages to destroy the Fediverse, there will be no freedom for anyone.
It’s not just about having the biggest reach, though.
I’ve noticed that some of the folks who are generally against defederating, whether it be between independent fediverse instances or from large companies, seem to have this impression that fediverse needs to take a huge chunk of some market share in order to compete. But the whole point of the Fediverse is that it doesn’t need to compete.
It’s not a company looking to increase their size, following a bottom line, and trying to increase profitability. It’s a network of people who communicate and share content. There’s no need to compete with anyone in order to accomplish that. We’re doing it right now regardless of whatever else exists out there.
We’ve gotten so used to this model where there are only a few really culturally relevant social media sites, but that’s literally because we’ve just bought into the business model of these companies as societies. Slashdot has been going strong since 1997. Is it the biggest forum or news site on the internet? No. It gets a tiny portion of the internet’s traffic. But that’s plenty to be what it is!
The fediverse is not facebook or twitter or reddit, and it shouldn’t be. We don’t want or need it to be.
I heard someone make the point recently that nobody walks into a nice, small restaurant and says they wish they were at McDonalds. Facebook is the McDonaldsification of the internet. Let’s be a bunch of small mom and pop restaurants instead.
The problem isn’t with the user base. It’s with Meta and their business practices. People very simply do not trust Meta or Facebook and with good reason.
That’s exactly it. Deleted my Instagram account when I learned they signed me up for a Threads account automatically. Haven’t used Insta in years, but Mark says I have to have a Threads account. So Fuck Zuck.
Sure, I have no love of Meta either, which is why I would love for people to have an easy escape hatch via the Fediverse…
Being the “Ban Happy” socal media is a bad thing and an even worse reputation.
I debate if its a good thing to let FB just have free content with asterisks as I have no idea whitch way the cup of users will spill
EDIT: FB is a parisite that has a small enugh heart to use agressive tactics like Embrace Extend Extinguish, be careful if we do let them in and always be ready to shut that door)
Another thing, lemmy.ml, reddit, twitter, (tiktok for good mesure) as well as Facebook and sons (and likely more) have sensorius admins, moderating above what most users want and warping conversations to pretend like “this is what people are saying online and nothing more nor less”. To be overly flippant: “lol problem child blocked other problem child”
either way, do what you think is right,
That’s an interesting point, one of the reasons I chose lemmy.world was that it wasn’t ban-happy.
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perspective: if i can still reach everyone on the fediverse with threads… why should i switch to lemmy and co? there is no incentive for it. so 99% will not do it if they don’t have to or get a incentive from it.we don’t get something from it, but facebook does (userdata and money).
so its a one sided deal where only facebook wins and we lose in the end.
Since writing my comment above, I’ve come across Cory Doctrow’s “Let the Platforms Burn” article where he argues that interoperability and the ability for users to move to other platforms is the best way out of the Meta situation. https://doctorow.medium.com/let-the-platforms-burn-6fb3e6c0d980
i mean, could lemmy even work with threads? completely different layout and functionality. im having a hard time understanding the Fediverse past lemmy instances interacting haha.
I agree with you on all of that, though I have a feeling that it’s overly idealistic and optimistic
You probably aren’t wrong about it being overly idealistic and optimistic. :-(
If they add user-level defed, I’d be pretty on board with defederation being used for stuff like bot farms.
As it stands, with the current lack of user-level defed-- defederating is a server/user-whitelist, server-blacklist function.
Ideally I think it should be a server/user-whitelist, user-blacklist function, where a server-blacklist is reserved for botfarms/illegal content.
more ideally would be as many levels of granular control as possable for users and their clients.
However Servers ghould get
- whitelist/blacklist of users
- blacklist/whitelist of communities (prevents blocking servers for just their groups)
- blacklist/whitelist of servers
- server federation
The point is to blacklist as specific as needed, EX: dont block lemmy dot Marxist Lennonists just its extremist communities (ml admins have a
communismchinaphile problem)
I understand your viewpoint but you have to realize meta/Facebook has done this before. The best solution to protect Lemmy/mastodon in the long run is to cut the cancer out before it has a chance dm to spread.
When you cut off a cancer, it dies. When you defederate a social network orders of magnitude larger and more powerful than you… it doesn’t even notice and continues to thrive.
This isn’t going to harm Threads or protect Lemmy.ml.
No, there are conciquences, we are at a point where its hard to see them
We take a risk no matter what we do, when we pull that plug both FB and us loose control of eachother,
FB will likely try to Embrace Extend Extinguish
We really shoud try to get along until they go evil. but…
at the same time we do somthing with our end of the link (3E method but without coersion like they will) or we die.
OR we cut them off
we sever the link and both sides lose power, Huge company with propaganda factories vs Good will and word of mouth alone,
FB could also force federate by webscraping (likely read only)
Excellent news!
I’m on the fence here. Luckily, at least, I think community/subreddit-based sites like Lemmy/Reddit don’t have “network effects” that are as “sticky” as Mastodon/Twitter, because with Lemmy/Reddit you don’t need to build up a follower list to start getting value. You just join the community and it’s as if you immediately “followed” a bunch of people who share your interests. You don’t even need to make an account - you can just bookmark a community and lurk, and maybe you eventually make an account to start interacting. It’s a great “on-ramp” - very low barrier to entry/usefulness.
I think that’s why Lemmy was able to take off so fast. It relies on community-level coordination, rather than every individual user having to make their own choice to switch, and try to get all their followers/followees to switch. So even if Meta did add a community-style mode, I don’t think it’d eat into the Lemmy userbase. It is hard to be sure though, and I respect the choices of those instances that have blocked/defederated.
Mastodon admins have a harder decision to make I think - there’s an opportunity to get very quick growth by effectively adding a lot more followable users/content. A bunch of people don’t like Meta/Facebook, but want to follow their friends, and so they may use Mastodon to do that, which could get a lot more people to move to “real” fediverse apps/sites like Mastodon. I know a lot of people that are on Threads now, and I’m looking forward to being able to follow them from Mastodon, rather than being forced to get Threads to keep up to date with what they’re working on.
These are very good news, I just hope more instances beyond lemmy.ml do so too.
Why is this good news exactly? Doesn’t this just mean that people who want to see content from Threads will be driven to that app instead? Why not allow Lemmy users to see Threads content without them actually having to support Meta?
https://ploum.net/2023-06-23-how-to-kill-decentralised-networks.html
this article here gives a pretty good rundown of the likely intent of any sort of federated integration with any meta product, with examples of the same thing happening twice before with other technologies.
supporting it puts them in a position to “help” it… as they “help” they implement new closed source features… then drop support.
much of the growth that would occur during the “support/help” phase would be on their proprietary iteration and would not benefit the fediverse.
the trajectory would likely be co-opting the fediverse, obscuring their service from the fediverse, while building their services behind closed doors, and then dropping support.
they’re recognizing the fediverse as a reasonable competitor, and this is a move intended to kill it.
Can y’all stop using this goblin as the thumbnail? Thanks
It’s not about Zuckerberg, it’s about the userbase. With something that grew to 30 million users literally overnight, it’s impossible to determine what it will be like, and how it will mesh with the existing fediverse content/users.
With something this scale, it only makes sense to secure and observe - pre-emptively block, watch the content, maybe even poll the users on what should be done. There is nothing to be lost this way, it’s only a cautious approach towards a potential later link.
What could be lost is the Threads community overwhelms the lemmy community before there is a chance to react (it is 1000x bigger, after all). It makes sense to be cautious, here.
This isn’t inconveniencing anyone, any user can make an account on Threads as well and use both right now.
