- cross-posted to:
- [email protected]
- cross-posted to:
- [email protected]
cross-posted from: https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/37235684
Obviously reporting transphobic comments to a transphobic mod isn’t going to result in any action, so I’m wondering if the admins are going to do anything about it?
(if someone needs an image description, please ask)
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This same dipshit aggressively scoffed at calling people Nazis for transphobic abuse on SDF.
https://sh.itjust.works/post/32203609/16487627
https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/37009822/16458134
‘They’re just like the Nazis in 1931, not 1935! How dare you compare them.’
Gendered sports is cringe, just sort into different “Leagues” based on different strength. Some cis boys can be born with a disadvantage, some cis girls can be born with a natural advantage, I don’t see them complaining about the cis girls who have a natural advantage.
Also:
Gendered bathrooms are also dumb. What are people even doing in the bathroom lol, just use and gtfo.
Some cis boys can be born with a disadvantage, some cis girls can be born with a natural advantage
Legit, even into adulthood. I’m the one smashing up concrete and paving while hubs hides under trees weeding
I do agree with you in theory, but the problem with this is that there are enough tiers of male athletes to fill multiple leagues before any significant number of women would be included, and people tend to only be interested in the top level of competition. The effective result of eliminating gender segregation would be the total absence of women in competitive sports.
OK that’s the last straw for me. I am willing to give the benefit of a doubt to people, but this is the third strike for this person. So I’ve asked them to move their comm to another instance as they don’t align with our instance values.
I mean, serious question. Is the goal to produce a pure echo chamber where no dissent arises? How far does this go. It seems like the end result of this is 5-10 large groups of peeps who have “aligned values” that can endlessly reinforce each other. I have a MAGA chud relative that spouts all kinds of nonsense. Is the best thing to literally exorcise this person from my life? I don’t know that a lot of identity driven silos is really all that healthy either.
Yes people should be safe, but that doesn’t necessarily imply that no one EVER disagrees with them does it?
Tolerance of intolerance is how intolerance prospers.
Bigotry is not a matter of opinion, it is one of hate.
Right, but that involves you holding the definition of bigotry as objective truth. You don’t think that anyone can have a good faith contrarian opinion to your values? I mean, life is complicated. People are complicated and come from a bunch of different communities or backgrounds. Do you think they should just bow down before your assessment, or do you think there should be some wiggle room to convince people of your ideas.
your liberty to swing your fist ends just where my nose begins
the same goes with opinions: opinions are valid until they start negatively effecting other people
transphobia is transphobia and hurts people. having transphobic opinions shut down hurts nobody
Well done. I appreciate the fuck out of this place.
Yet another very common db0 W
Yet another very common transphobia L
Well done
Another victory for the peoples court, hear hear
Fantastic to hear, thank you!
Based db0 as always.
What was the comm?
They are arguing that they have said nothing wrong because men are not allowed in women’s spots… ugh
Yeah, that person is a transphobe and a sealion, and there is absolutely no point in providing them any leeway or platform to spew their bigotry from.
Yeah, people are so weird.
I don’t know enough about sports, or the skeletomuscular and endocrine differences between someone AMAB and someone AFAB, to comment on the topic.
I’d much prefer to defend our trans community, but there’s way too much misinformation for me to get the valid and credible information needed to do so. Can someone please share some links so people like me can be educated enough to speak out in support?
Read *Who’s Afraid of Gender? *
The jest of it is that sometimes cis women have more testosterone than cis men. Even in top athletes.
And trans women on hrt have less than either.
I started transitioning over the summer, I’ve lost 15 lb of muscle mass.
Three decades of testosterone dominance made me tall and lanky. But no taller or more lanky than cis women I know. About the only major difference, as far as sports are concerned, would be my wider shoulders. And still needing to wear a cup I guess.
(Psst I think the word you meant was ‘gist’)
Oh thanks :)
Always fun to discover I’ve been misspelling a word for decades lol
Perfect. I’ll definitely check that out. Thank you!
If anyone else is as strapped as I am, I just confirmed they have the E-book for loan on my local library website. Borrowing from the library may help authors less than purchase, but it’s still better than piracy.
Seconded
I’d like to know more about he topic.
I replied to the above comment. Just letting you know if you want to take a look at what I had to say.
Thanks! I’ll give it a read
Transphobes can get wrecked.
We’d better do our best to ruin these people because they don’t agree with us. No tolerance for the intolerant! Everyone who doesn’t immediately sign up for our beliefs, must be intolerant, by definition. Burn em all!!!
ruin these people
Get some perspective, mate
You’re right; I didn’t really mean it in the context of “ruin their lives” but my cat started barfing on the floor mid-typing and I had to chase the little plastic demon away and got distracted and then I slipped on a banana peel and it slid me a minimum of three metres in a single direction and then I hit a bookcase and a dusty tome landed in front of me (in front have me?) and opened on a very auspicious page. Very auspicious indeed, for it cast a magical spell that turned me into a newt. It got better, though. Anyway, I digress.
Fuck off, it’s an internet forum.
Also?
Yes.
Being intolerant makes you intolerant. Good spot.
There’s a difference between tolerating someone’s beliefs and immediately adopting them as your own. Just because someone doesn’t share your beliefs, does not mean they are being intolerant.
Bad take
Why don’t we just make a trans league so we can just stop talking about this with anyone ever again?
Also, does a person who has gone through male puberty before transition not have at least some advantage in certain areas due to bone structure alone? I understand that trans girls who pre-empt puberty are likely physically equivalent to their cisgendered peers, but I have my reservations about integrating people who transition later in life. If I’m wrong, I would love to see any studies anyone may want to share.
EDIT: I am wrong, thank you flamingembers. I would also like to apologize for the wording of this post. My original thought was that trans women who previously went through male puberty may have an advantage in some areas due to a potential wider skeletal structure in their upper bodies as compared to cisgendered peers. I did let my (unfounded on research!) opinion creep into that too much, and I do understand why that would leave a bad taste in the mouth of anyone who knows better.
The evidence clearly contradicts the thinking that my original post was based upon - there was no area studied where trans women had an advantage. On top of that, it also appears trans women can’t even intake as much oxygen as cis women - which would already offset any size differences even if trans women were bigger and stronger on average (they aren’t).
This isn’t news to anyone educated, but I wanted to edit this comment so that any transphobes upvoting my post due to having the same flavor of ignorance that they do understand that I do not agree with them, and I am not trying to propagate their views.
There aren’t enough trans people to have our own league. Also separate but equal is not an ethical solution.
No, they are not at an advantage https://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/rcna148437
You’re right, that is an unrealistic solution. I’ve never been interested in sports, so I admit I didn’t really put much thought into that. I guess, in my mind, trans people in sports is one of the less dire issues we face today. But, I should acknowledge that there are trans people whose life revolves around sports, and I appreciate you framing it the way it is: separate but ‘equal.’ That really adds a stark perspective to it that I admittedly had not considered.
Thank you so much for linking research, I’ll read that right now.
EDIT: I didn’t read the article, I clicked their link to the study and read the abstract and data. So, if I’m reading the data correctly, the only factor measured where trans athletes have an advantage is the slightly higher grip strength of trans women? Just making sure I’m interpreting that correctly. Thank you so much for sending that my way.
It’s worth keeping in mind that the issue was entirely manufactured so that they could turn the public against trans people.
https://www.erininthemorning.com/p/opinion-the-trans-sports-attacks
That’s good to know, thank you for this!
What a great fucking read. Really helped open my eyes to how this sports issue is used to dehumanize us. I really appreciated how she laid out the logical next steps after a trans sports ban, and how it’s inevitably leveraged to take away more and more of our rights. I’ll definitely be following her articles to keep myself informed.
Side Note: Is that journalist Zoey Zephyr’s wife? I feel like I recognize her face.
Nope. Male puberty doesn’t cause changes that aren’t mitigated by transition.
Any changes to bone structure that don’t change are the ones that are present in any athlete in a given sport.
I’m not digging through studies for you, because I haven’t gotten a single paycheck from anyone ever for doing so online. That information is out there, and it’s your responsibility to do your due diligence on the matter.
If you don’t know that you’re wrong or right already, by having looked for the information needed to make a credible opinion, maybe hang back a bit, or at least ask better questions.
Maybe some people learn things by asking questions in the right spaces to be corrected intellectually. I’m completely fine with being wrong, that’s why I asked a controversial question here. I don’t need you to provide studies to rethink my opinion, I just figured people in this thread might have some available. Apparently the only thing you have on hand at the moment is snark.
Also you’ll only help educate people if you get paid? What??? This would have been such a good moment to point me toward literally any resources that could help in my research. You didn’t even have to link a study, you could just link a database. You and I both know there are studies funded by special interest groups that are biased against trans people. I never claimed to have a credible opinion, which is why I invited discourse.
Anyway, thanks for your statement. I guess I’ll have to look into this more myself. Just keep in mind that most people, when the burden of research is placed upon them by someone who clearly has knowledge of the subject, will simply say “fuck that” and keep being ignorant.
fun fact: your body is an incredibly dynamic system and hormones are the major drivers for those changes. swap the hormones out and the body adjusts to its new normal. when you do this is fairly immaterial.
also ‘later in life’ you mean when adults are playing sports together? oh no… or do you mean professional sports where transgenders currently would be banned regardless because of bigotry? what exactly are we talking about here?
maybe you should leave these opinions to train medical professionals who work with these issues on the regular instead of your gut.
Later in life like, after puberty… I feel like I was pretty clear.
I’m not using my gut, I’m using my eyes and seeing trans athletes that are bigger and wider than cisgender peers, and then asking if that affects anything in certain sports. Nowhere did I state trans women shouldn’t be playing any sport. I posed that as a question, then followed up with my thoughts on the issue and asked for dialogue contradicting my opinion - because I want to be wrong about this! I’m just asking because I thought this would be a good place to ask. Judging by both responses to my comment, it’s apparently more important for me to know I’m wrong than to help me know what’s right.
Are you a trained medical professional?
Na you’re just playing classic tucker carlson. ‘just asking questions’ nonsense. You see the OP literally linked to research that literally answers your questions but you act like no one has provided you with anything and somehow therr is a debate here. But there isnt, there is just a bunch of misinformed and bigots playing off peoples ignorance.
Yes im a trained medical professional. So kindly get bent
I’m not debating anything! I admit I don’t know which is why I was asking for information! I see that OP links to research in the screenshot, but I can’t see any links for me to click in this crosspost OR the original post! I said my opinion and welcomed facts to prove me wrong, and at no point have I tried to argue I’m correct! You’re right, there is no debate, I’m not trying to debate! But I figured someone, maybe even OP, would at least link the studies from the screenshot. Especially since I don’t know what community the discussion originally happened in!
Maybe the wording of my post drew some ire, and for that I apologize. But I sincerely think that having a misinformed opinion is not cause to shame someone, especially if they’re literally asking for information! If you think that all I’m going to do when I see the studies is call them bullshit, that’s fine, I get it. The internet is hostile and there are bad actors everywhere trying to get people to waste time and energy. But are you seriously going to just shit on me for being ignorant and just tell me “uhhh stop it dumbass” without even trying to educate? I get that I have internalized transphobia… kinda comes with the territory of being a rural trans woman. I just thought this would be the fucking space to ask.
That’s nice. Move long Mr. Carlson. ‘welcomed facts to prove me wrong’ says it all. You have enough information from the original image and other comments in this thread to find all of the information you need. Its not our responsibility to educate every asshole carlson running around.
You’ve at this point:
- been given a ton of search terms, article titles, misc information, and direct links to studies within this thread to get started.
- been informed by literally everyone here that your view is biologically incorrect and bigoted to boot.
Now its your turn to take personality responsibility for educating yourself. Like probably every person here has done on their own. If you don’t know how to do this at this point in your life, I suggest community adult education classes, they’re generally free and that person is being paid for their time to teach you basic life skills.
I will offer to clarify any medical terminology you run into or specific questions about specific sources you find that are from peer reviewed medical journals.
Again, some people converse to learn. I feel like that’s partially the point of social media - mingling perspectives allowing for growth. You are shitting on me much more than you’re informing me. Thankfully, someone did link me a few studies. Which I read. That’s all I was ever asking for. You’re conveniently ignoring my interaction with flamingembers. Sometimes people do just want to be proven wrong, and aren’t just baiting. The purpose of my original comment was just to invite facts to disprove my opinion. Which I thankfully recieved.
I asked for direct links because I thought this would be a good place to ask. That ended up being true, but not before having to wade through a swamp of snark first.
My point being, it took you just as much effort, maybe more, to shit on me for asking a question the wrong way and having the wrong opinion as it would to just link a fucking study. I’m just supposed to see you call me a bad actor, a bigot, and compare me to Tucker fucking Carlson when I was legitimately just asking for studies (admittedly in a way that made it seem like I wanted a debate, and not a discussion) and say, “huh, I guess they’re right?”
Sports aren’t important to me. Trans people in sports is not something I’ve researched extensively. I stated my opinion based on my perception of the few trans athletes that I’ve seen in top level play, and I was wrong. The one study I’ve been linked did show that in all ways measured except grip strength, trans women are at a disadvantage, and trans men are at a complete disadvantage. I will add too, that I didn’t realize how inseperable the issue is from the rest of life for trans people. I’ve been guided toward Erin in the Morning, who had an excellent article pointing out how trans sports bans are used to justify other erosions of trans rights.
Just as you’re not getting paid to link studies, I’m not getting fucking paid to sit around researching the aspects of being trans that (as I thought at the time) have fuck all to do with how I live my life. I don’t have time to sit and research all day, which is why I thought, “Hey, I’ll ask about this in the thread discussing it, surely someone will have some information for me.” Someone did, thankfully, but the only information you had for me is that you think I’m a fucking asshole.
I understand being averse to the way I phrased my original post, I showed my ignorance and realize what was ignorant about what I said now that I’ve read more sources that disprove what I said. But you can’t just assume ignorance means unwilling to learn. Wanting to learn more is why I posted in the first place. And all you really did was inform me that I was ignorant, and shame me for being ignorant. Hmm, if only there was some way to give ignorant people information. Of course, most of the time that does lead to being baited by bad actors, but you decided I was a bad actor before even presenting any relevant information and seeing what my response was. My opinion and question was related to skeletal structure of post-puberty trans people, and all you said was “hormones change things pretty fast.” Which that, I am aware of, but I’m also aware that hormones sometimes cannot undo what puberty does in the first place. And that’s another reason why I posed the question.
Respectfully, I don’t want you to clarify any terminology for me. What happened to you not thinking it’s worth it to take the time to educate? I welcome anyone that would like to tell me more, but I think you’d much rather call me an idiot for not knowing in the first place.
I’m not a fan of the tone they are using to discuss this. There is a difference from transitioning before puberty vs after. There are specific biological differences that a mtf woman will have that hormones won’t change. There is an issue that needs to be resolved with sports. I don’t know what the solution is, but shutting down conversation doesn’t seem like it. Shutting down transphobia, yes absolutely. I hope I’m not coming off poorly.
I have to admit that this was the discussion that made me realize we can easily believe a problem exists just because it theoretically might exist. The discussion started without any data backing the claims. People said there was an advantage and that it was unfair, but they were just words that connected to internal belief systems that were either faulty or bigoted.
It’s similar to the discussion of sportswear. The solution is offering athletes choice and autonomy, but it’s easy to end up in discussions criticizing the clothes without consulting the people that are affected and the reality of their situation.
There are specific biological differences that a mtf woman will have that hormones won’t change.
This is transphobia since it is factually incorrect and stems from wilful ignorance, and I’m shutting it, and your tone policing, down. There, how’s that?
I ment the tone of the original post complaining about the trans woman playing on the women’s team. I appreciate that article and agree with it. But I don’t really feel bad about doing it to people who are expressing anger because trans people exist.
I would be interested in any articles you have about the biological changes I was talking about. I would love to read anything you have. I’m going off of general classes I took in college. Like developmental, human, and cell biology. Nothing was specific on transitioning, just the general sexual dimorphism in humans.
What makes you think it’s willful ignorance over garden-variety ignorance? Being incorrect and thinking you are correct is different from purposefully keeping yourself ignorant.
I have no horse in this race, and willfully being ignorant and spreading disinformation about trans topics willfully is indeed transphobic and warrants aggressive shutdowns, like the comment I’m replying to. But unless I’m missing something I don’t see the evidence of bad intent here? It just seemed like a bit of a leap.
I honestly don’t know how to simplify it further: impact > intent. Always. This understanding is a fundamental corner stone to all anti-oppression work.
E: Either way, I’m done engaging in this derailment and centring of privileged feelings. The people who prioritise their own comfort and feelings over the harm they cause others, and who would rather invest all of their energy in to finding loopholes to allow them to continue avoiding holding themselves accountable for their actions, instead of just, I donno, listening to marginalised people who are telling them that they are causing harm, are, well, never going to listen. And I simply have better things to do with my time and emotional labour.
The world seems so simple when you have a simple mind. Must be nice.
deleted by creator
Im leaving his comment up in order to respond but I don’t want to rehash that discussion here.
The reason this decision was taken was not just this one discussion. It was because that person has too many red flags for my liking on the stuff they would defend, always juuuuust skirting the line of what is acceptable discourse here.
That makes perfect sense, past behavior definitely changes things. I appreciate the explanation.
