I can’t watch the video at this moment but is there a reason “infant genital mutilation is not cool” doesn’t work? It’s the only argument I’ve ever needed
Once you confront someone with the stark reality that they performed genital mutilation on an infant, you enter the stages of grief, and it’s not so much that it doesn’t “work”, but instead, now the person confronted with this reality has to dig and dig to justify the genital mutilation, and they’ve NEVER had to do that before.
They’ll deny that it’s actually mutilation.
They’ll get angry at your persistence and your unwavering position.
They’ll plead and bargain over how it’s actually a good thing, and how no one wants the child to be “different”.
They’ll become saddened by the idea that they could have done this at all, if what you say is even true.
Until, after much persistence, they finally accept your position, and realize what they did was not necessary.
This would be true for those who are cut too. For a long time, it was just “normal”, and when these men are confronted with the reality that they’ve been living with an unnecessary mutilation, they will do the same thing. It’s hard reconciling the parents you love, and the idea that they consented to your genital mutilation at birth.
I will say, among my group of friends, none of them had their sons circumcised, and among us, it’s a large majority of boys within the group of kids. I don’t know if that’s a growing trend or just one local to me and my friends. We talk pretty openly about it, which is probably why.
They’ll deny that it’s actually mutilation.
They’ll get angry at your persistence and your unwavering position.
They’ll plead and bargain over how it’s actually a good thing, and how no one wants the child to be “different”.
This is what happened when i asked my mom about it. We did not reach the next two stages. We no longer speak but not at all because of this matter so i guess I’ll never know if she feels bad for doing it.
I realize I’m making it seem like it’s something that I think or talk about a lot but I only get obstinate about it when it’s brought up by someone else
Yeah, I get it, I don’t think about it either until it’s brought up. I’ve never asked my parents about it directly, and I probably won’t. My parents are pretty cool, and I know that when I was born, that is just how everything was done. I don’t say that to excuse it, but it’s not like the people around them were challenging them on it, and they would have likely accepted the idea had it been presented to them. They’ve had no issue with my son not having it done.
My mum is the same, she’ll avoid the discussion or get really bad faith mean when pressed. Cuz of this and a few other stuff, we have no relationship now. We’d probably be fine-ish if she took 5 seconds to apologise for 3 things.
When I went down the rabbit hole of this years back, I got REALLY angry. It took a long time for me to pull out of it. I hope you’re doing OK.
I appreciate the sentiment but I’ve been ok with it for a long time.
CW non-traumatic personal parental stuff
Pretty easy to get over it when i have a lot of evidence that my mother’s a narcissist and likely did it without regard for me at all and if my dad protested(unlikely) she probably manipulated his emotions.
I’m sorry about all that. That’s gotta be hard to get over.
In regards to my parents, they’re just normie centrists, so it’s a bit more surprising that they could be so cold. I feel like being boomer white settlers does this to people.
my brother had his son circumcised even though he was thinking he wasnt going to do it because his gf/wife brought this up. i was honestly kind of flabbergasted, i didnt even know what to say, seemed like such a dumb reason i couldnt believe i was hearing. small mercies that his son will probably not really care, but still such a shitty thing to do to your child,…
I’ve never read someone blaming feminism for circumcision though.
Totally not your fault. Just that MRA types have been making a real effort to insert themselves into intactivism. It’s really obvious on reddit. Most (but not all) intactivist subs are modded by the same people modding MRA subs. It’s what eventually drove me off of
Also middle American intactivist communities are loaded with MRAs.
Personally I think that it’s due to reactionaries having more time, money, and resources to do shit. Also leftists tend to prioritise a bunch of other stuff. Like I’d love to do more intactivism, but there’s a billion other real problems happening right now too.
Sorry for the long post. I can’t stress enough that I’m not arguing with you.
Is it still super common in the States? It costs like $500 no public health coverage to get it done by the delivery doctor here because they’re trying to discourage it
It’s still pretty common over there, around 60%-55% of AMAB babies are circumcised. Aside from cosmetic and cultural factors, a lot of people get sold on the idea that it has benefits to hygene and overall health outcomes. These aren’t good reasons of course, and the boons it provides are mostly marginal, not enough to justify inflicting that on an infant.
That being said, there is significant evidence that circumcision lowers the probability of HIV transmission and as such it may be beneficial for adults to undergo the procedure voluntarily in regions with high infection rates.
That being said, there is significant evidence that circumcision lowers the probability of HIV transmission
The studies that push this were heavily flawed and criticised. They took two cohorts, circumcised one, and found that in under a year’s time the circ group had a somewhat smaller level of hiv infection. Well maybe because they weren’t having sex for two months after getting cut??
There’s been follow up research showing that over time, cut and uncut cohorts don’t have any meaningful difference in infection rates. I can find it if you like.
There’s probably some increased rate of transmission through certain cells of the foreskin, but the difference isn’t massive. And the protection isn’t anywhere near as close as condoms or PrEP.
I need to always point out that circumcision is being pushed by Amerika in Sub-Saharan Africa, and very much by Bill Gates. They would be much better served by getting rid of IP protections for anti virals, and the West just stop fucking with their countries.
Frankly, my research into circumcision as an HIV prevention measure was a while ago and I took UNAIDS on their word for it. I believe this counts as talking out my ass and I apologize for that. Being corrected on this is something of a relief since it means one of the arguments in favor of circumcision being disproven.
Nah, it’s fine. I’m not mad. It’s not your fault that Western Imperialism has fucked everything up. The general Western medical consensus is more or less what you said.
I did want to mention that the “voluntary” medical circumcision in Africa is around aged 12, which isn’t exactly a good age of consent.
Give me a few minutes to find the research. I’ll tag you when I find it.
In the Kenya trial, the protective effect of circumcision seemed to disappear after 18 months. In the 18–24-month follow-up period, eight circumcised and nine uncircumcised males contracted HIV, an insignificant difference.
Based on our analysis it is concluded that the circumcision solution is a wasteful distraction that takes resources away from more effective, less expensive, less invasive alternatives. By diverting attention away from more effective interventions, circumcision programs will likely increase the number of HIV infections.
What exactly are the terrible arguments? Like women do it because they feel jealous of our dicks? Ok now that i imagined that strawman it looks a lot more believable
assuming this isn’t true, right? not that it matters either way, just curious. also, what does feminism have to do with circumcision? from my understanding its prevalence stems from weird christian puritanism
The reactionaries making the claim aren’t offering evidence, and those people are all bad faith all the time anyways. I don’t think it’s worth spending a moment considering their assertion. And yes, it’s probably factually wrong.
I can’t watch the video at this moment but is there a reason “infant genital mutilation is not cool” doesn’t work? It’s the only argument I’ve ever needed
Once you confront someone with the stark reality that they performed genital mutilation on an infant, you enter the stages of grief, and it’s not so much that it doesn’t “work”, but instead, now the person confronted with this reality has to dig and dig to justify the genital mutilation, and they’ve NEVER had to do that before.
This would be true for those who are cut too. For a long time, it was just “normal”, and when these men are confronted with the reality that they’ve been living with an unnecessary mutilation, they will do the same thing. It’s hard reconciling the parents you love, and the idea that they consented to your genital mutilation at birth.
I will say, among my group of friends, none of them had their sons circumcised, and among us, it’s a large majority of boys within the group of kids. I don’t know if that’s a growing trend or just one local to me and my friends. We talk pretty openly about it, which is probably why.
This is what happened when i asked my mom about it. We did not reach the next two stages. We no longer speak but not at all because of this matter so i guess I’ll never know if she feels bad for doing it.
I realize I’m making it seem like it’s something that I think or talk about a lot but I only get obstinate about it when it’s brought up by someone else
Yeah, I get it, I don’t think about it either until it’s brought up. I’ve never asked my parents about it directly, and I probably won’t. My parents are pretty cool, and I know that when I was born, that is just how everything was done. I don’t say that to excuse it, but it’s not like the people around them were challenging them on it, and they would have likely accepted the idea had it been presented to them. They’ve had no issue with my son not having it done.
My mum is the same, she’ll avoid the discussion or get really bad faith mean when pressed. Cuz of this and a few other stuff, we have no relationship now. We’d probably be fine-ish if she took 5 seconds to apologise for 3 things.
When I went down the rabbit hole of this years back, I got REALLY angry. It took a long time for me to pull out of it. I hope you’re doing OK.
I appreciate the sentiment but I’ve been ok with it for a long time.
CW non-traumatic personal parental stuff
Pretty easy to get over it when i have a lot of evidence that my mother’s a narcissist and likely did it without regard for me at all and if my dad protested(unlikely) she probably manipulated his emotions.
I’m sorry about all that. That’s gotta be hard to get over.
In regards to my parents, they’re just normie centrists, so it’s a bit more surprising that they could be so cold. I feel like being boomer white settlers does this to people.
my brother had his son circumcised even though he was thinking he wasnt going to do it because his gf/wife brought this up. i was honestly kind of flabbergasted, i didnt even know what to say, seemed like such a dumb reason i couldnt believe i was hearing. small mercies that his son will probably not really care, but still such a shitty thing to do to your child,…
I can understand a man coming to this conclusion. Im having a hard time wrapping my head around a women coming to this conclusion. That’s wild.
deleted by creator
I think that argument does work, but a lot of regular folks have literally never been confronted with any argument against circumcision.
I didn’t need an argument to be against it
It’s fine, tbh. I’m just used to anti circ people and arguments online being mostly terrible. (not your fault, reactionaries will always be shitty)
I don’t think cutting baby genitals needs particularly sophisticated arguments?
I’ve never read someone blaming feminism for circumcision though.
Totally not your fault. Just that MRA types have been making a real effort to insert themselves into intactivism. It’s really obvious on reddit. Most (but not all) intactivist subs are modded by the same people modding MRA subs. It’s what eventually drove me off of
Also middle American intactivist communities are loaded with MRAs.
Personally I think that it’s due to reactionaries having more time, money, and resources to do shit. Also leftists tend to prioritise a bunch of other stuff. Like I’d love to do more intactivism, but there’s a billion other real problems happening right now too.
Sorry for the long post. I can’t stress enough that I’m not arguing with you.
Oh yeah I forgot entirely about the “intactivist” communities actually, they’re the worst
Is it still super common in the States? It costs like $500 no public health coverage to get it done by the delivery doctor here because they’re trying to discourage it
It’s still pretty common over there, around 60%-55% of AMAB babies are circumcised. Aside from cosmetic and cultural factors, a lot of people get sold on the idea that it has benefits to hygene and overall health outcomes. These aren’t good reasons of course, and the boons it provides are mostly marginal, not enough to justify inflicting that on an infant.
That being said, there is significant evidence that circumcision lowers the probability of HIV transmission and as such it may be beneficial for adults to undergo the procedure voluntarily in regions with high infection rates.
The studies that push this were heavily flawed and criticised. They took two cohorts, circumcised one, and found that in under a year’s time the circ group had a somewhat smaller level of hiv infection. Well maybe because they weren’t having sex for two months after getting cut??
There’s been follow up research showing that over time, cut and uncut cohorts don’t have any meaningful difference in infection rates. I can find it if you like.
There’s probably some increased rate of transmission through certain cells of the foreskin, but the difference isn’t massive. And the protection isn’t anywhere near as close as condoms or PrEP.
I need to always point out that circumcision is being pushed by Amerika in Sub-Saharan Africa, and very much by Bill Gates. They would be much better served by getting rid of IP protections for anti virals, and the West just stop fucking with their countries.
Frankly, my research into circumcision as an HIV prevention measure was a while ago and I took UNAIDS on their word for it. I believe this counts as talking out my ass and I apologize for that. Being corrected on this is something of a relief since it means one of the arguments in favor of circumcision being disproven.
I would love to read the research you mentioned.
Nah, it’s fine. I’m not mad. It’s not your fault that Western Imperialism has fucked everything up. The general Western medical consensus is more or less what you said.
I did want to mention that the “voluntary” medical circumcision in Africa is around aged 12, which isn’t exactly a good age of consent.
Give me a few minutes to find the research. I’ll tag you when I find it.
@[email protected]
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.2217/17469600.2.3.193
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5345479/
What exactly are the terrible arguments? Like women do it because they feel jealous of our dicks? Ok now that i imagined that strawman it looks a lot more believable
MRAs will say shit like:
cw: misogyny
most circ doctors are women, the industry is lead by women profiting off of the suffering of boys, feminists don’t care about or support circumcision
Reactionary ideas are all just New World Order shit rebranded
assuming this isn’t true, right? not that it matters either way, just curious. also, what does feminism have to do with circumcision? from my understanding its prevalence stems from weird christian puritanism
The reactionaries making the claim aren’t offering evidence, and those people are all bad faith all the time anyways. I don’t think it’s worth spending a moment considering their assertion. And yes, it’s probably factually wrong.